Originally Posted by SAINT

If you are a Taiwanese yourself, you will reverse all the points you have just made..

How will you feel as a Taiwanese Chinese when the mainland Chinese are threatening and trying to kill you?

As we are speaking, more than half of the Taiwanese population don't want this independence thing, for whatever reasons. The Chen government manipulated the population, played with people's emotions, and instigated the strong feelings against the mainland among an increasing number of the Taiwanese. But so what? The Japanese people were once mostly supportive of their government's crimes in in Asian neighbors! Should we and the world allow that to go on just because the Japanese people supported it? The same goes with the German people who once supported Hitler.

Aside from such rhetoric, we all know that it's a game! The strong is the winner and the weak the loser. China has had its glory and has been stomped by so many foreign nations, big and tiny. What could the Chinese say? They were weak then. But times do change. All empires will fall sooner or later. China has risen and fallen many times in its some-5000-year recorded history. It's about time for China to rise again, don't you think?

taiwanese is chinese, thereby the chinese government would never consider napalm, hollow-heads, WMD, nukes, or anything to destructive to cause death.

btw, im really predicting a japanese invasion of taiwan.... i feel that if china invades taiwan, japan will interveen, there is just this agressiveness in japani dont trust..

anyways, taiwanese ppl wont go and sucide bomb or do gurella warafare aginist chinese troops, because we are all chinese living in china.,..

btw, refering to the civil war, most battles fought had a 30% or higher of nationlistc troops changing sides.

Originally Posted by godofthunder9010

....On the other hand, the People's Republic of China, right or wrong, is screaming for its right to exactly that to Taiwan. The truth of the matter is, regardless of how it happened, today the Island of Taiwan functions under 100% self-rule and China's designs on Taiwan is to crush that rule and establish its own -- so China is the only nation involved that is actually being Imperialistic.

As much as I appreciate your willingness to reason, I have to point out yet again that most of the world, which includes the USA, recognize Taiwan as part of China. That, legally, makes the Taiwan problem a domestic problem to China. If you want to call China's intention and actions to unite with one renegade province an imperial one, you need to first talk almost the whole world, which include your own government, into severing diplomatic relations with China, and recognizing Taiwan as an independent state.

Originally Posted by It's all a game

As much as I appreciate your willingness to reason

Nothing short of outright accepting all of your (and the PRC's) contradictory points as valid seems to be appreciated. From what I've seem, the most of the reasons are flawed for one reason or another, yet nobody on the China side is willing to admit any of that. Everything short of outright agreement is laughed off as "just not understanding Oriental Culture" or some other such nonsense. Still, so long as your "appreciation of my willingness to reason" is not carrying a condescending tone ... well, thanks.

I have to point out yet again that most of the world, which includes the USA, recognize Taiwan as part of China. That, legally, makes the Taiwan problem a domestic problem to China. If you want to call China's intention and actions to unite with one renegade province an imperial one, you need to first talk almost the whole world, which include your own government, into severing diplomatic relations with China, and recognizing Taiwan as an independent state.

By that reasoning, the People's Republic of China had no legal right to exist until they were officially recognized by most of the nations of the world (that would be the first 20 years plus of its control over the mainland) ... so the PRC spent all that time as a lie -- one giant renegade province. If you are going to accept what other nations "officially recognize" as a valid means of establishing what is "legal", then you're going to have to swallow all of it, not just the parts that suit you. Are you willing to admit that the PRC was a Renegade Super-Province, Illegal and had Absolutely No Right to Exist from 1948-1970, 22 years of its existence?

Why does most of the world recognize Taiwan as part of China? Mostly, its because China would throw a tantrum if they changed that. Also, Taiwan hasn't declared itself independent from China -- they still officially claim rulership OVER ALL China. So you have 2 governments claiming to rule it all and neither asking (as yet) to be recognized as anything separate from one another. What choice does anyone have?? They have to pick one. Every nation I know of chooses the People's Republic of China -- its just too illogical to recognize Taiwan as "official government of China".

The hypothetical situation we are discussing -- Taiwan declaring independence from mainland China is only hypothetical. It hasn't happened yet and may never happen. What we are discussing is this: What happens if Taiwan DOES Declare Independence?? What happens next?

On the Imperialism thing -- If Hainan (sp?) Island declared their independence from China, and the PRC stamped that movement out -- that would NOT be Imperialistic. They absolutely do have control over Hainan -- they would simply be reasserting the control and dominion that they already have there. Enforcing what already is. Taiwan, on the other hand ... feel free to call it whatever you like ... would be a hostile takeover, removal existing government and first-ever establishment of PRC control over that Island. It most certainly does fit the definition of Imperialism.

OK. I see your point. I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the things for the time being.

But no, I definitely didn't mean anything condescending at all. I definitely appreciate the care you care to take in writing your English and in reasoning, and enjoyed reading what you have to say.

By the way, I occasionally stop at this site, and I bumped into these two articles about China's expanding its influence. You may find them interesting (if not disturbing):

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat...#Post293118705

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat...b=5&o=21&part=

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

What SERIOUSLY arouses my curiosity is this overall Chinese obsession with "unite" topics.
Because I've read them in a few other forums as well, all the authors being Chinese.

Yes , all chinese have had a strong idea about "Unition" since 2000 years ago,even more,that would be our ultimate ideal,that is our instinctive choice, separation is a rebelling action, which can not be tolerant with a old woman or a young child

yup, chiense is aobut togetherness, in family, military, political and economic, a seperate china never works out

Originally Posted by It's all a game

OK. I see your point. I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the things for the time being.

But no, I definitely didn't mean anything condescending at all. I definitely appreciate the care you care to take in writing your English and in reasoning, and enjoyed reading what you have to say.

By the way, I occasionally stop at this site, and I bumped into these two articles about China's expanding its influence. You may find them interesting (if not disturbing):

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat...#Post293118705

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat...b=5&o=21&part=

Not entirely sure why I would find it disturbing. The fact that China is looking into other options (besides threat of force and military actions) for strengthening its position in the world. It is a very positive thing. The fact of the matter is, I really like China on the whole. Many people dream of the day when China is the greatest nation in the world. Some say "once again", but that's not quite accurate. Since the European Colonial Period put the entire globe into ever increasing contact -- the whole world being very aware of the entire rest of the world -- China has not had a run (as yet) as The Greatest Nation in the World.

One very important thing must occur if China is to ever fulfill its dream of re-emerging as the Middle Kingdom again. It has to drastically alter its image. The fact is, its still the same government that invaded Tibet. Its still the same government that jumped head-first into the Korean War. Its the same government that, right or wrong, at fault or not, led China into border wars with India and the Soviet Union. Numerous threats or hints that force might be used against their neighbors have been all too commonplace. All of this combines itself into China's image problem. They are seen as 1.) Militaristic, 2.) Propagandist and 3.) a Big Bully.

Wanna hear my plan to stun the world into completely rethinking its ideas about China?? #1 Thing: Drop Taiwan. If China were to turn around and tell Taiwan, "You're free to decide what you want to do." and then follow through accordingly. If Taiwan elects to truly reunite, good and well. If the elect to choose independence, that's also just fine. The bigger picture that most Chinese seem to not be seeing: China DOESN'T NEED THEM. Its a tiny scap of ground that will not significantly impact whether China one way or the other. By dropping Taiwan and putting its fate 100% into the hands of its citizens, China would achieve more diplomatically than it could through any other action.

Wanna hear my plan to stun the world into completely rethinking its ideas about China?? #1 Thing: Drop Taiwan. If China were to turn around and tell Taiwan, "You're free to decide what you want to do." and then follow through accordingly. If Taiwan elects to truly reunite, good and well. If the elect to choose independence, that's also just fine. The bigger picture that most Chinese seem to not be seeing: China DOESN'T NEED THEM. Its a tiny scap of ground that will not significantly impact whether China one way or the other. By dropping Taiwan and putting its fate 100% into the hands of its citizens, China would achieve more diplomatically than it could through any other action.

SO TRUE. That's the kind of thing that makes one want to fall in love with China!

Hey, there's lots of good things to fall in love with. China's a pretty amazing place with some pretty amazing people. The part that kills me is that this idea is the brilliant move that China is 100% blind to. We'll wait to hear from the PRC faithful, but I'll bet they are going to have a very hard time wrapping their minds around the idea.