Originally Posted by KJ

Another important fact..
In Bosnia our peacekeepers found that when hit by an AT missile, such as the (AT3 Sagger) and the RSV burned through, the only thing that saved the troops and crew was that they were "buttoned up" as the RSV had somewhere to go and leave the inside of the vehicle.
This would also be aplicable to the Stryker and the Bradly I would imagine.
The Abrams might be built to take a direct hit by a sagger?

As stated by BD before though, the better vantage point up top is very important in urban inviroments and is SOP, atleast in our Armour units.

The M1 uses Depleted Uranium Armor, so it is more difficult for a HEAT Round to pass into the Crew Compartment.

I'd say as a former Engineer that I could disable even an M1 with a single 155mm Shell used as an Improvised Mine, but I've never done it.

Redleg, I'll shoot you a PM as to the how, I wouldn't want to give any bad people any ideas (as if they needed any help).

I'd say as a former Engineer that I could disable even an M1 with a single 155mm Shell used as an Improvised Mine, but I've never done it.

Disable is one thing, but I/we were talking about destroying, and that's a completely different story in my opinion..

I could certainly see a couple of ways to disable/immobilize an Abrams by using a single M107 as an IED as well.

There is no SOP for building an IED. They use whatever they can find.

It seems that one point is being missed in this whole debate--the crew! Sure, an Abrams can be destroyed, name one military vehicle that can't be destroyed. An Abrams can be disabled with a hand grenade if you know what you're doing. Depending on where you look, the estimate of destroyed Abrams in Iraq ranges from 20 to over 200. But look at the pictures of these "destroyed" tanks(some more here Favourite tank). Notice that the gun tube is usually over the back deck. That is a standard crew drill for bailing out of the tank, it gives the driver an alternate escape route through the turret. The damage couldn't have been that bad if they had time to traverse the turret around to the back. In mmarsh's picture, that tank's main gun ammo ready rack exploded(that twisted piece of metal on the back is the rest of it) but the crew got out safely. With over 8,000 Abrams series tanks in the US arsenal(http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/m1-intro.htm), replacing a tank isn't much of a problem. It's a lot harder to replace a highly trained and proficient crew. The most important part of a tank is it's crew, and if they get out, it doesn't matter how bad the tank is damaged. The terrorists may get some good footage of a tank blowing up for their propaganda videos, but they'll have another Abrams knocking at their door with a pissed-off crew as soon as a replacement tank arrives. And a crew that has faith in the survivability of his equipment is a very powerful weapon.

Originally Posted by bulldogg

Thank you for clarifying your line of reasoning Dean.

Here is the more probable scenario...

Armour was not breached, they weren't buttoned up.

The driver and the commander have the option to be exposed for greater field of vision, essential in an urban environment. This also exposes their head and upper torso to blasts and small arms fire.

Hmmm... In many scenarios, this is very probable. I must admit that I did jump to my conclusion when you stated that the deaths were due to an IED detonation. I guess I need a bit more info. But then again, all of the other contributions to this thread have pretty much answered the question.... unfortunately.

Dean.

Originally Posted by weed

It seems that one point is being missed in this whole debate--the crew! Sure, an Abrams can be destroyed, name one military vehicle that can't be destroyed. An Abrams can be disabled with a hand grenade if you know what you're doing. Depending on where you look, the estimate of destroyed Abrams in Iraq ranges from 20 to over 200. But look at the pictures of these "destroyed" tanks(some more here Favourite tank). Notice that the gun tube is usually over the back deck. That is a standard crew drill for bailing out of the tank, it gives the driver an alternate escape route through the turret. The damage couldn't have been that bad if they had time to traverse the turret around to the back. In mmarsh's picture, that tank's main gun ammo ready rack exploded(that twisted piece of metal on the back is the rest of it) but the crew got out safely. With over 8,000 Abrams series tanks in the US arsenal(http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/m1-intro.htm), replacing a tank isn't much of a problem. It's a lot harder to replace a highly trained and proficient crew. The most important part of a tank is it's crew, and if they get out, it doesn't matter how bad the tank is damaged. The terrorists may get some good footage of a tank blowing up for their propaganda videos, but they'll have another Abrams knocking at their door with a pissed-off crew as soon as a replacement tank arrives. And a crew that has faith in the survivability of his equipment is a very powerful weapon.

Just to clairify. The M1 Abrams main focus when being concived aside from blowing up lots of USSR tanks, was crew survivability, exactly what you explaining. Exactly why it has an ejecting ammo rack, why it has a Halon system, why it has 18in (speculated) of frontal armor, why the Abrams has numerous backup systems. There is one thing more valuable to the Us Army Armor Corps than it's tanks, and thats its crews.

The reason the Us only has 8,000 M1's and the number remains the same is that every M1 was built to be rebuilt. Oh, BTW 8,000 is not how many are being used, just what the US has produced. There are 2,000 IPM1's sitting on Ft.Knox rusting away waiting for upgrading.

Originally Posted by Redleg

Disable is one thing, but I/we were talking about destroying, and that's a completely different story in my opinion..

I could certainly see a couple of ways to disable/immobilize an Abrams by using a single M107 as an IED as well.

They seem to have a fondness for using artillery shells with the occasional AT mine attached also, which was the case pictured. No one made it out alive in this one.

Originally Posted by Big_Z

There is no SOP for building an IED. They use whatever they can find.

Actually there is an FM for it.

A Russian view of the Abrams tank


http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/Modern/Abrams/oops/

Originally Posted by LeEnfield

A Russian view of the Abrams tank


http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/Modern/Abrams/oops/

Thats okay - you should see all the ones that they lost in Grozny in both wars, for where we have lost a handful (complete write offs ) they have lost hundreds including T-80s and T-72BMs with K5 ceramic tiles. The M1A2 is the best protected tank that is out there and the Russians will even state that.