we are way off topic and im not american.

Originally Posted by Rorke

Well Iraq had approximately 6 thousand homeless because the evil tyrant ran massive housing projects then the democratic US came and everything got better, oh wait no it didnt you ruined the country.

Since subtlety apparently bounces off you let me rephrase it in a more direct manner, US is full of bigots like you who think that whoever makes decisions that are opposed to what you want is a tyrant.

Naser was a hero for his people and did a lot of good for them, Saddam with all his cruelty was the sole reason for stability in Iraq, Chavez took over oil refineries because your corporations were bleeding the country dry.

Make no mistake i live next to Russia and Russia is an uncivilized shithole incapable of normal relations with its neighbours i'd love having US for a neighbour instead but dont call people who oppose US in the best interest of their countries tyrants, angels they're not but what they're doing is good for them and their people, there's two countries where US had it their way, Afganistan and Iraq, you made them both ruined hellholes so its no wonder others want to avoid that fate.

saddam killed over 200000 of his own people through direct orders with nerve gas, i think he should have been removed

Originally Posted by Bacara

saddam killed over 200000 of his own people through direct orders with nerve gas, i think he should have been removed

Saddam never everrr killed 200 thousand people via gas, you maybe throught about 20 thousand, thats a closer figure, 200 thousand might be the total number of his victims.

That said the country was stable, after US invasion well over half a milion died to this date and the country 'is' in ruin, by removing him you destroyed Iraq ( and stole their resources ).

I'm very very interested by the topic discussed here.

But it's kinda offtopic... So, can we please go back to the tanks becoming obsolete?
and if someone starts a topic about that, please leave a link here...

and Sherman, can you tell us how far we are from the day when sorties with tanks become too dangerous...

My idea is pretty simple. I was thinking about the Iraqui forces and their tanks against the US army. the US army developped very efficient anti tank missiles... and I think about the Javelin system rather than the AT4 and such...
I mean really top of the line hardware to fight tanks...

The day the soldiers will be equiped with such intelligent missiles, with fire and forget capabilities... using tanks against them will be suicide.

And I can add helicopters to the list too.

The day the Mujahideen had the Stinger missile in Afghanistan, the Russian helicopters lost their value in the battlefield... or at least, a big part of their value... they had to change tactics and limit their usefulness in the battlefield...

But what if the Mujahideen had better missiles? like missile capable of targeting a low flying aircraft, or a high altitude target?

The bombers and the helicopters would be completely obsolete.

Why we use tanks? because they are armored and hard to kill.

The day they will be easy to kill... The tanks will be useless.

They may be useful to carry big guns... But why all the heavy armor if the first enemy they meet can send them a missile from 5000yards to blow the whole vehicule...

They will start to use lightly armored trucks to carry guns...

And these days, we have intelligent artillery rounds, or even better... smart artillery missiles. Capable of identifying a tank pretty easily...

I think that today, the tank is arleady obsolete. But we still have lowtech enemies, who dont have the tools to fight the tanks...

It's like if I told you that revolvers are obsolete as weapons of war... But somewhere on this earth, there is still people fighting with bows and arrows... So the revolvers might do the trick against such targets...

I dont think using tanks against a high tec enemy is suicide. The point is to give each of your tools the abilety to shine inspite of its deficencies.

Tanks are armored against artilery, small arms, and small anti-armor weapons. They have exellent mobilety. they have superb fire power.

You need to understand that by your claim that tanks are useless because of anti-tank weapons, any weapon is useless. there are exellent Anti-Aircraft missiles. There is a huge ammount of infantry killing weapons.

Your small amored truck is just as vulnreable to ATGMs as a tank is, and much more to small caliber weapons, artilery, mines and general bad stuff.

I think the topic is also kind of related to 'urbanization' of the world. There's a constant influx of people into the cities, from the countryside. Thanks to globalization and commercialization of pretty much all industries (including agriculture) and basic social services, people around the world leave their villages in hopes of a higher standard of living in the cities.

Meaning battles are getting closer and closer to big cities. In the near future I think this will be even more obvious. So I say the question is, will tanks be as effective on the streets and alleys as they are in open battle areas?

I really doubt the current traditional tank design is efficient enough for modern urban warfare. And the transition will force them to adopt new weapons and concepts and evolve into something else. Something that is smaller, faster and more maneuverable with much better sensors, BUT with either less firepower or higher precision weapons that minimize collateral damage.

Originally Posted by Lunatik

I think the topic is also kind of related to 'urbanization' of the world. There's a constant influx of people into the cities, from the countryside. Thanks to globalization and commercialization of pretty much all industries (including agriculture) and basic social services, people around the world leave their villages in hopes of a higher standard of living in the cities.

Meaning battles are getting closer and closer to big cities. In the near future I think this will be even more obvious. So I say the question is, will tanks be as effective on the streets and alleys as they are in open battle areas?

I really doubt the current traditional tank design is efficient enough for modern urban warfare. And the transition will force them to adopt new weapons and concepts and evolve into something else. Something that is smaller, faster and more maneuverable with much better sensors, BUT with either less firepower or higher precision weapons that minimize collateral damage.

First of all the existing tanks despite their weaknesses are great for urban combat even against high tech enemy, the tank is there to provide superior firepower that has capability to operate under heavy fire.

Taking a tank down even with modern missiles is easier said than done while the tank itself is still a very viable mobile bunker, blitzkrieg tactics are no longer possible since unassisted tanks will get mauled by AT infantry but combined arms ground assault still requires a solid core that tanks provide.

Originally Posted by LeMask

I'm very very interested by the topic discussed here.

But it's kinda offtopic... So, can we please go back to the tanks becoming obsolete?
and if someone starts a topic about that, please leave a link here...

and Sherman, can you tell us how far we are from the day when sorties with tanks become too dangerous...

My idea is pretty simple. I was thinking about the Iraqui forces and their tanks against the US army. the US army developped very efficient anti tank missiles... and I think about the Javelin system rather than the AT4 and such...
I mean really top of the line hardware to fight tanks...

The day the soldiers will be equiped with such intelligent missiles, with fire and forget capabilities... using tanks against them will be suicide.

And I can add helicopters to the list too.

The day the Mujahideen had the Stinger missile in Afghanistan, the Russian helicopters lost their value in the battlefield... or at least, a big part of their value... they had to change tactics and limit their usefulness in the battlefield...

But what if the Mujahideen had better missiles? like missile capable of targeting a low flying aircraft, or a high altitude target?

The bombers and the helicopters would be completely obsolete.

Why we use tanks? because they are armored and hard to kill.

The day they will be easy to kill... The tanks will be useless.

They may be useful to carry big guns... But why all the heavy armor if the first enemy they meet can send them a missile from 5000yards to blow the whole vehicule...

They will start to use lightly armored trucks to carry guns...

And these days, we have intelligent artillery rounds, or even better... smart artillery missiles. Capable of identifying a tank pretty easily...

I think that today, the tank is arleady obsolete. But we still have lowtech enemies, who dont have the tools to fight the tanks...

It's like if I told you that revolvers are obsolete as weapons of war... But somewhere on this earth, there is still people fighting with bows and arrows... So the revolvers might do the trick against such targets...

their is plenty of counters to ATGM's like chobam, i spelt it wrong, reactive and active armor, all effective against missiles.

Future of the battle tank?



Prototype 449 Design Phase - Anti-Gravity Hover Tank

Oh yeah, that the future tank... If he shoots a round, he will find himself in China...

Anti gravity rule!!!