I suppose... guarded by the US/UK/France until they set up their own security.
Well it's not like that right now so... where to go from here?

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

I suppose... guarded by the US/UK/France until they set up their own security.
Well it's not like that right now so... where to go from here?

Well the first step would be to bring Israel under control and make them vacate all of the lands back to those borders drawn up in 1947.

Will it be painful,... Yep, but no more painful than it was for those who were over run in the Zionist push for Lebensraum.

BUT,.. that is not the subject of the debate is it? The question is Why do the Palestinians not have a state of their own. To that the answer is simple. They Do,... it's just that at the moment it's occupied by a foreign power.

No one wants to bite the bullet, and no one wants to admit that it's going to end very badly for someone. When it does go pear shaped, we (the rest of the civilised world) will gnash our teeth and wring our hands and the recriminations will start. Politicians will make heart wrenching speeches and another Rwanda, Timor or whatever, will be swept under the carpet. The US will lose more credibility in the eyes of the world as having been possibly the only group who could have done something but instead decided to become part of the problem rather than the cure.

I know that my contribution will amount to nothing, but if I'm still alive after it happens, I will at least have the comfort of being able to say "I told you so". That's about the best I can hope for personally.

im sorry but the vast majority of the jewsish people is a NATION. we lived in the land for over a thousand years (archaelogically proven) until we were forcibly expelled. we still mainained a presence in israel throughout history and have always longed to return there.

there was NO palestinian state there. there was no country there. as far as im concerned we jews have a great claim to this land...its our home. let there be 2 states for 2 peoples, but do not try to claim that us jews have no right to our homeland.

by the way, before israel was ever established, the arabs attacked jews living in british palestine in massive pogroms. why? there was no israel...for what reason did they attack us? the palestinian leader at the time of the holocaust supported hitler and aided him in killing many jews. manay many arabs went along with this.

and when there was a partition, the arabs said no and went to war to exterminate the jews from the land. thats history. a great number of palestinians fled, some were encouraged to by theie leaders/fellow arabs, some feld to escape battle, and some were forced out (but that was only a minority). my point is that if the arabs accepted the 2 state solution back in 48, which would have given them a much bigger palestine, there would be no mess that we have today.

but do NOT try to claim that us jews have no claim to this land...that is bordering on prejudice and ignorance, and perhaps hate.

Originally Posted by benaakatz

im sorry but the vast majority of the jewsish people is a NATION. we lived in the land for over a thousand years (archaelogically proven) until we were forcibly expelled. we still mainained a presence in israel throughout history and have always longed to return there.

there was NO palestinian state there. there was no country there. as far as im concerned we jews have a great claim to this land...its our home. let there be 2 states for 2 peoples, but do not try to claim that us jews have no right to our homeland.

by the way, before israel was ever established, the arabs attacked jews living in british palestine in massive pogroms. why? there was no israel...for what reason did they attack us? the palestinian leader at the time of the holocaust supported hitler and aided him in killing many jews. manay many arabs went along with this.

and when there was a partition, the arabs said no and went to war to exterminate the jews from the land. thats history. a great number of palestinians fled, some were encouraged to by theie leaders/fellow arabs, some feld to escape battle, and some were forced out (but that was only a minority). my point is that if the arabs accepted the 2 state solution back in 48, which would have given them a much bigger palestine, there would be no mess that we have today.

but do NOT try to claim that us jews have no claim to this land...that is bordering on prejudice and ignorance, and perhaps hate.

Well if we want to go back in time for land claims perhaps we should look at the second millenium BC when the area was an Egyptian Province (Lots of historical evidence for that) so perhaps we should hand the lot back to them?

The reality is that the immigrants post WW2 have no claim to anything in the area and before that the region had about 50 "owners" as various empires march through the area, Canaanites, Hittites, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Christians, Muslims to name but a few.

Originally Posted by benaakatz

im sorry but the vast majority of the jewsish people is a NATION. we lived in the land for over a thousand years (archaelogically proven) until we were forcibly expelled. we still mainained a presence in israel throughout history and have always longed to return there.

there was NO palestinian state there. there was no country there. as far as im concerned we jews have a great claim to this land...its our home. let there be 2 states for 2 peoples, but do not try to claim that us jews have no right to our homeland.

by the way, before israel was ever established, the arabs attacked jews living in british palestine in massive pogroms. why? there was no israel...for what reason did they attack us? the palestinian leader at the time of the holocaust supported hitler and aided him in killing many jews. manay many arabs went along with this.

and when there was a partition, the arabs said no and went to war to exterminate the jews from the land. thats history. a great number of palestinians fled, some were encouraged to by theie leaders/fellow arabs, some feld to escape battle, and some were forced out (but that was only a minority). my point is that if the arabs accepted the 2 state solution back in 48, which would have given them a much bigger palestine, there would be no mess that we have today.

but do NOT try to claim that us jews have no claim to this land...that is bordering on prejudice and ignorance, and perhaps hate.

You should look in the mirror yourself regarding "prejudice, ignorance, and hate". Also you are wrong about being a nation. By definition, a "nation" is a group of people under one government. The Jewish people were under dozens of Governments all over the world. You are actually no more than a group of like minded co-religionists with highly aggressive colonial ambitions. A much despised form of expansionism that went out of fashion everywhere else in the civilised world 70 years ago.

The Arabs (and of course those Jews who were still living there prior to the European influx), had no reason whatsoever to accept any agreement, as it is THEIR land. The fact that you have no claim to it would be upheld in any court in the civilised world outside of USA and Israel.

I also notice that you have carefully avoided answering the question from MontyB on page #1:

Originally Posted by MontyB

Imagine if I moved into you house and moved you and your family to the bathroom and then 40 years later I offered to let you use part of the backyard would you accept that and be happy?

70 years ago they had the whole area and then through British weakness a bunch of displaced Europeans moved in against their will and pretty much evicted them why do you think they wont accept 10% of the land they once owned with a smile?

Not this **** again. I could jump in but honestly all the players here know what my positions are. Just keep it civil guys ok?

Perhaps we should look into the possibility of a land-swap? Say we were to give the Israeli's and Palestinians an archipelago somewhere in the Pacific, each on their own islands. And we would move say the Fijians (or what they are called) into that barren patch of desert. They can coexist their and the others can hate each other from their own islands.... And it divides very easily too !

Originally Posted by SHERMAN

Not this **** again. I could jump in but honestly all the players here know what my positions are. Just keep it civil guys ok?

Thank you Sherman.

Every so often there comes a new generation who deserve to be told the truth, by people with no personal involvement to cloud their judgement.

That's all I want to do, and to that end I will most certainly respect your wishes.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Well if we want to go back in time for land claims perhaps we should look at the second millenium BC when the area was an Egyptian Province (Lots of historical evidence for that) so perhaps we should hand the lot back to them?

The reality is that the immigrants post WW2 have no claim to anything in the area and before that the region had about 50 "owners" as various empires march through the area, Canaanites, Hittites, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Christians, Muslims to name but a few.

With you here:

Sumerians, Cathargo, Rome, rings a bell?

Oh, and we all came from Africa, so, we all have *the right* to claim it, throw everybody else out of there and to go back there? Seriously? Or just the Muslims? Or the Christians?

Come on, all this "we were there before you, some 2k yrs ago" stuff has me tired, this is *not* a valid argument from my POV. Spain was Al Andaluz for some time, anybody in his right mind would say we should give it back to the Arabs?

Originally Posted by Ted

Perhaps we should look into the possibility of a land-swap? Say we were to give the Israeli's and Palestinians an archipelago somewhere in the Pacific, each on their own islands. And we would move say the Fijians (or what they are called) into that barren patch of desert. They can coexist their and the others can hate each other from their own islands.... And it divides very easily too !

Not a bad idea (not necessarily in the published form, but something along the line), maybe. I do undrstand both sides, they just do not seem to understand the 20th or even less the 21st century setup...

Rattler

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

It's not without precedence either. Liberia was formed as a country that freed American Blacks could move "back" to. The ordeal that the slaves had gone through justified the creation of a state for them in the continent they had come from.

Having said that, the location of the creation of the Jewish State was a huge mistake.

And Sierra Leon like Liberia was formed by another nation , Great Britian in Sierra Leons case as place to put freed blacks who had fought for the British in the American Revolution. But in both cases it caused conflict with the local people, much like the Israel.