Originally Posted by senojekips

No, the majority of my ancestors came from England. Y'know,... the place where the Muslims are treating the locals like the Israelis are treating the Muslims in Palestine.

Google is your friend.

Not quite. It is the place where the Muslims are treating the locals like the Muslims are treating the Israelis in Israel.

My friend is my refusal to succumb to prejudice and propaganda.

Originally Posted by cisco

In fakt there is no good and bad guys there, they all have bloody hands.
Anyway, bombing the palestines Infrastructue will not solve the problem, building more Settlements there will not solve the Problem and I could go on. It is time for israel to aknowledge THEY must sacrifice a few things if they want peace now, or this slaughtering will go on for more decades.
Of course I would be more than glad if Hamas and Co would stop shooting homemade missiles at Israel or sending suicide bombers, but you can hardly expect them to show up for a Waterloo reloaded with just some AK 47 vs a state of the art IDF.
If Israel won't change its politics regarding the palestinians they can prepare for the same as the english had to with Ireland, 800 years of blooodshed. I know this will not be easy for any gouvernment in Israel with the Influence the hardcore "Greater Israel" Partys have, and neither for the palestinians, but it's either that or going on as they do right now.

I agree and as time goes by it becomes a battle that no one can win as eventually technology and knowledge will enable Palestinian groups to develop some form of WMD and given that they are the only side prepared to die voluntarily for their cause I doubt they would have any issues with using them.

Peace in the region is eminently attainable but not until both side actually want it and currently neither appear to be serious about achieving it.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Not quite. It is the place where the Muslims are treating the locals like the Muslims are treating the Israelis in Israel.

My friend is my refusal to succumb to prejudice and propaganda.

Unfortunately delusion appears to be a better friend as we all succumb to prejudice and propaganda, the more intelligent recognise it and work to compensate rather than deny its affect.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Not quite. It is the place where the Muslims are treating the locals like the Muslims are treating the Israelis in Israel.

My friend is my refusal to succumb to prejudice and propaganda.

As usual, you haven't been following the thread have you? Ahhh,... don't worry Del Boy, not only is your narrow mindedness, prejudice and lack of morality thriving, but it is amply and regularly demonstrated in your posts here. Your quote above being a very good example.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Even the fact that western observers were present did not deter Israelis from shooting at Palestinian farmers innocently going about their business. Clearly another scare tactic designed to scare the land owners into deserting their land.

What would US farmers do in such a situation when it's no use calling the Police as they support the shooters?

This makes a complete mockery of an earlier statement in a similar thread stating that it is not Israeli military policy to harass (and kill) Palestinian civilians

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Not quite. It is the place where the Muslims are treating the locals like the Muslims are treating the Israelis in Israel.

My friend is my refusal to succumb to prejudice and propaganda.

Funny to hear that from you, a guy who openly supports theft, genocide and racism in the name of "historical Jewishness" of the land as long as its done to Arabs.

One more thing, you openly support murdering women and children as long as done by Jews, you have ignored every claim and article, every source posted here on Jewish atrocities, you have failed to refute accusations towards Israeli Jews on how they expelled the locals.

At the same time you claim they have a right to the country even if it means killing, stealing and expulsion of locals, even if it means locking them up in ghettos, how does it make you any better than a goddamn nazi?

You know what Marcel Deat did when he heard the plight of Jews in WW2 France? Ignored it, you're exactly like a Nazi except you ignore facts concerning Arabs because they're not Jews.

For you throught the entire topic Arab people are a subhuman race, they have no right to own the lands because Jews want them, they have no right to demand Jews out of their lands because Jews lived there a thousand years ago, at the same time Jews have a right to everything owned by others simply because they want it.

You have no right to speak about morals, you have no morals, no ethics, you're a goddamn racist and zionist apologetic.

You claim others prejudiced yet you refuse Arabs right to live in their home and defend their home simply because people who invaded it and occupy it are jewish, made no claims that would justify it and you speak of prejudice?

Anyway i do not believe peace is possible at all, Palestinians are fierce and proud people, they will ultimately never agree that invading Jews be allowed to keep Palestinian land.

The most likely scenario is that Palestinians or some other Arab group gets their hands ona dirty bomb, viral agent or something else that kills most people in the region, and lets face it if Israel loses its water sources and a major part of the population the Arab states and Palestinians will do everything in their power to kill all remaining occupants.

So this time its not my own argument of what "should" happen but rather the most realistic scenario, within a generation we're going to see Jews dead and/or forced to leave, Israel is in the long term unsustainable.

Its not Europe where Germany and Poland lived together for a millenium, got a bad century and got over it, its inserting a highly fascist, racist culturally alien state onto the lands belonging to fierce proud and unforgiving people, there's not gonna be a peace untill one side exterminates the other and Jews despite their military excellence dont really have any hope of winning with the area and population they have.

Hmmm. Nice company being kept these days on this forum.


I have simply presented lists of the facts of Israel's claim historically. I have not attacked "Palestinians" in any way.


As I said before - I refuse to succumb to prejudice and propaganda.

Unfortunately, reason cannot prevail against prejudice.

Here is a man who echoes my contribution on this thread so far:-

Menendez floor speech on acknowledging Israel’s history

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Hmmm. Nice company being kept these days on this forum.

Yes,... it's great to see a few persons with some moral backbone who are not frightened to tell the truth. What a pity there weren't a few more like that in the 1930s when it was the Jews on the rough end of the stick. None of this argument may have been necessary.

As I said before - I refuse to succumb to prejudice and propaganda..

Unfortunately, reason cannot prevail against prejudice.

Here is a man who echoes my contribution on this thread so far:-

Denial alone counts for nothing, your prejudice and bitter racial narrow mindedness has been pointed out on this forum in Panzercracker's last post and I am sure he is not on his own in those views. Your rather specious argument is nothing more than pure racial hatred and prejudice to suit your own ends, so all of your flowery words mean nothing.

As for the video, it is of a man with as little or less moral backbone than yourself. Just another mealy mouthed politician spouting rhetoric to suit his present political ends, who would back flip in a moment should it be in his personal or political interest.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

That's one guy's opinion. Are there groups that want Sharia law imposed on America? Yes. Are there Muslims who wouldn't want Sharia law imposed on America? Also yes. And I'd bet the there are more of the latter than the former. Many of these folks have actually left the Middle East not just for economic opportunity but to get away from Sharia law.
How do you even know a real Muslim wrote that piece anyway? Have you read it? It sounds like a bad joke.

It is even more complicated because sharia isn't sharia. It always depends how the sharia is interpreted. And what we call enlightened, modern, western juristiction is also not the same everywhere, there are countries (like most of continental europe) whos laws are based on the french code napoleon and on the other side the more anglo-american based version.
But thats leading us a bit off topic. A good point you made is, we dont really know where this statement the OP mentioned comes from.
It could be, surely, from a palestinian, as well as there are statements of hardcore israelians who want to get rid of all arabs, but I think neither is representative for the majority.

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

Funny to hear that from you, a guy who openly supports theft, genocide and racism in the name of "historical Jewishness" of the land as long as its done to Arabs.

Show me where I said that or shut up.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

One more thing, you openly support murdering women and children as long as done by Jews,

Show me where I said that or shut up.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

you have ignored every claim and article, every source posted here on Jewish atrocities, you have failed to refute accusations towards Israeli Jews on how they expelled the locals.

It is not my responsibility to respond to every post on this thread; there are others here you know. I have my own case to put forward for consideration.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

At the same time you claim they have a right to the country even if it means killing, stealing and expulsion of locals, even if it means locking them up in ghettos, how does it make you any better than a goddamn nazi?

Show me where I said that or shut up.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

You know what Marcel Deat did when he heard the plight of Jews in WW2 France? Ignored it, you're exactly like a Nazi except you ignore facts concerning Arabs because they're not Jews.

Do you know what the Arabs did when they heard of the plight of the Jews in WW11? Offered to kill them on behalf of the Nazis; offered themselves to be allies of Hitler.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

For you throught the entire topic Arab people are a subhuman race, they have no right to own the lands because Jews want them, they have no right to demand Jews out of their lands because Jews lived there a thousand years ago, at the same time Jews have a right to everything owned by others simply because they want it.

Show me where I said that or shut up.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

You have no right to speak about morals, you have no morals, no ethics, you're a goddamn racist and zionist apologetic.

Oops. Here we go with the good old racist card, the last refuge of the desperate. Just becuase someone disagrees with you and points out that there are three sides to every argument doesn't make them a racist. I have not belittled the Palestinians anywhere on this thread, but have only backed two states and peace.
Show me where I have done otherwise or shut up.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

you refuse Arabs right to live in their home and defend their home simply because people who invaded it and occupy it are jewish, made no claims that would justify it .

Show me where I said this or shut up.

Originally Posted by panzercracker

Anyway i do not believe peace is possible at all, Palestinians are fierce and proud people, they will ultimately never agree that invading Jews be allowed to keep Palestinian land.

The most likely scenario is that Palestinians or some other Arab group gets their hands ona dirty bomb, viral agent or something else that kills most people in the region, and lets face it if Israel loses its water sources and a major part of the population the Arab states and Palestinians will do everything in their power to kill all remaining occupants.

So this time its not my own argument of what "should" happen but rather the most realistic scenario, within a generation we're going to see Jews dead and/or forced to leave, Israel is in the long term unsustainable.

Its not Europe where Germany and Poland lived together for a millenium, got a bad century and got over it, its inserting a highly fascist, racist culturally alien state onto the lands belonging to fierce proud and unforgiving people, there's not gonna be a peace untill one side exterminates the other and Jews despite their military excellence dont really have any hope of winning with the area and population they have.

O yes, very nice. Not racist of course. Ha! You look for the death and destruction of Jews, I look for negotiated peace and prosperity for the region, for both peoples. Read the Menendez floor speech of my last post, that is my position in a nutshell. Nothing racist in it.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

-snip- (repeatedly) Show me where I said that or shut up.

While I am always following on your line of argument, DelBoy, spoken like a man !

Panzercracker, maybe you want to review what you wrote, and what DelBoy wrote, I think there is not much foundation to your claims.


This said, now changing freq to 2m horizontal, 0300 is too late for my age and job...

Rattler

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Show me where I said that or shut up.

Show me where I said that or shut up.

You claim that the Jews have the right to their country, the majority of Jews live on property of expelled Palestinians, if you claim they have a right to the country built of expulsion of others you defend those expulsions, otherwise we agree that Jews have no right to a country built on the property of others.

So if you dont encourage expelling of Arabs then we indeed agree that the majority of Jews have no right to remain in Palestine

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Show me where I said that or shut up.

Men, women and children were forced out of their homes by Jews or not allowed to return to them after hostilities ceased, some were killed in the process, if you defend the moral right of jewish state to exist without condemning these acts you must back them up?

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Do you know what the Arabs did when they heard of the plight of the Jews in WW11? Offered to kill them on behalf of the Nazis; offered themselves to be allies of Hitler.

I'm unfamiliar with that, any links?

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Show me where I said that or shut up.

So do you agree that Arabs have the right to kill Jews who came to live in their homes and attempt to keep them by force of arms? Or do you argue that Jews should be allowed to remain in the property they stolen, if so why? And what of the people who lost it? Whats your moral argument about that?

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Oops. Here we go with the good old racist card, the last refuge of the desperate. Just becuase someone disagrees with you and points out that there are three sides to every argument doesn't make them a racist. I have not belittled the Palestinians anywhere on this thread, but have only backed two states and peace.
Show me where I have done otherwise or shut up.

Not at all, i might be wrong and you're not racist, if so i'll gladly admit my mistake and apologise but i'd be gratefull if you adress all my points raised in this particular post since i feel they touch the very core of our argument.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

O yes, very nice. Not racist of course. Ha! You look for the death and destruction of Jews, I look for negotiated peace and prosperity for the region, for both peoples. Read the Menendez floor speech of my last post, that is my position in a nutshell. Nothing racist in it.

Let me clarify something, i have nothing against Jews at large but i will always oppose racially based occupation of Arabs simply because its wrong, i also have very firm beliefs on what should happen to people who choose to live on stolen lands regardless of their race, gender age or combatant/non combatant status, if you make a choice be ready to suffer the consequences but thats not the point.

But lets get to the point that might wrap this up, i have several questions that will clarify our discussion for good.

1. Do you believe Jews should be forced to give back all the lands they have forcefully taken from Arabs, if no then why?

2. Do you believe Jews have the right to keep lands and resources taken by force from Arabs if no, why?

My position is that Jews can have a state on the land they bought through peacefull transaction, they should be forced to give back all the lands, houses and resources taken from Palestinian by force of arms or administrative/"legal" expulsion.

They should be made so by force of arms and those who would choose to refuse would be transported out by force, if they chose to defend lethal force should be used against them.

Every Jew who bought his land legally, without the use of law based or illegal expulsions of the Arabs should be allowed to stay and from what land they have they can make a country the way they see fit, of course this means that Jews would have to give back at least half of their country but maybe then they would be able to live in a region and not be universally and fully deservingly hated by everyone there.

No strawmans Del Boy, if you have the courage to clarify my questions regarding your opinion please do so (though i dont believe you will).