Why did Germany lose WW2?

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August 28th, 2011   #521
LeEnfield
 
 
U Boat location....The British started to read those codes in late 1941 and re routed convoys around the packs, but by late 1942 they then started to have the ships to take the battle to the U Boats

Radar.....My father worked as Fighter Controller in 1940 at Hawkinge in Kent not they could direct the fighters to those German formations with out any problems as they were that large you could not miss them. Now the fighter to fighter interception could be more difficult as it was a smaller and faster moving target. Inland Radar, yes there was as there were three huge radar masts just at the back of Locksbottom in Kent which was near Biggin Hill. Also in 1940 they had the first airborne radar going, it was not that accurate but did work as Cats Eyes Cunningham could tell tell you. Now to hide the fact that they had this airborne radar they put around the story in the press that the night fighter pilots were being fed on carrots to help their night vision to cover the fact of their success rate.

H2S Radar..... Yes this was a great aid for navigation and brought our bombers to the correct cities at night, but OBO was the thing that allowed the pathfinders to drop their markers right on the spot. Using OBO the pathfinders could drop their markers on an area the size of a tennis court any where in Germany.


The T34......If the Germans knew about this tank do you not think they would have started to develop a tank to match earlier rather than wait until they had captured one and then start to upgrade there armour.


LeEnfield Rides again


Last edited by LeEnfield; August 28th, 2011 at 10:39..
 
August 28th, 2011   #522
lljadw
 
About the T34,if before Barbarossa (let's say october 1940)the Germans had knew about the existence of the T34,and had decided to built something to counter the T34(the Panther),the first Panthers would not be available before 1942,thus it would not make any difference for the decisive period of Barbarossa.
And,if I am not wrong,the T34 production started only in 1941,to late for the Germans to take countermeasures .
About H2S,my point was that this was used in the UBoat war,and,IMHO,much more successful than Enigma .
 
August 28th, 2011   #523
lljadw
 
Some other points:in 1942,the Allies were unable to read the Enigma codes (source :UBoat Net) and still,the Germans failed to win the Battle of the Atlantic .
An other :in january 1942,an average of 22 UBoats were patrolling the Atlantic and sank 48 merchant ships with 277000 GRT,that means that it took a UBoat 14 days to sink ONE merchant ship,that means that the rentability was very low and that most merchant ship losses happened accidentally .
In the same period,there was ONE UBoat loss,that means that the hundreds of ships and aircraft that were patrolling succeeded in one month to sink ONE UBoat,that means that most UBoat losses happene accidentally .
There only was one possibility for the Germans to sink more merchant ships :having more patrolling UBoats.
There also was only one possibility for the Allies to sink more UBoats:having more patrolling ASW.
While Enigma could help,its importance has become a myth .
 
August 29th, 2011   #524
Seehund
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
Radar and the BoB:radar was very primitive these days
Good historians and researchers should be aware of the pitfalls when looking back in time, for there is always the danger of judging the past in the context of the present. Primitive it was, by todays standards, however it was the combination of available technologies and the pioneering work on effective Control and Reporting Systems that made Chain Home so successful. For all its faults (HF technology, poor low level cover below 2o, slow data transmission and so on) the CH flood-light radar system represented the best general early warning system that could then have been devised given the technological capability and the level of scientific knowledge available in Great Britain at that time.

,and could not direct the B ritish fighters (much stronger than you think) to the point of interception .
The stations were designed primarily as early warning and raid reporting stations, however by the out break of the Second World War sector controllers were using CH data to position their fighters with an accuracy of about five miles. This was usually sufficient on a clear day or in bright moon light but useless in poor weather conditions or dark nights. In early 1940 interception experiments showed that direct control of the interceptor was possible. Because of the lack of mechanical rotation it was found that the best method was to point the aerial at the target and direct the interceptor along the beam.

The radarposts were at the coast,and,when the Germand had passed the radar,there was no possibility to know the number of aircraft(no IFF),the type of aircraft,height ,speed,direction:the Germans could and did change direction
Most people know that radar was used to guide RAF Spitfires and Hurricanes to their targets in the Battle of Britain, but only a few recall that there was another method of spotting and identifying aircraft crossing the country. Members of the mainly-voluntary Observer Corps were on duty day and night, watching and listening in all weathers to identify and report the location of aircraft. The Observer Corps was one of the cornerstones of Lord Dowdings air defence system and he said later in his despatch on the Battle of Britain: It is important to note that at this time they (the Observer Corps) constituted the whole means of tracking enemy raids once they had crossed the coastline. Their work throughout was quite invaluable. Without it the air-raid warning systems could not have been operated and inland interceptions would rarely have been made.


It should be mentioned at this point that the great success of CH was due in no small measure to the incredible acquired skill of experienced operators, particularly the WAAFS (Women's Auxiliary Air Force). Signals at extreme ranges, well below 'noise' level, were detected and tracked.
My answer is in red above

Last edited by Seehund; August 30th, 2011 at 08:35..
 
August 31st, 2011   #525
lljadw
 
About Radar :maybe you could read the following on the Web:
radarpages.coUK
Deflating British Radar myths in WWII.
The 3 myths about Radar:
1)Watson-Watt is the father and sole inventor of Radar
2)Germany's discovery and realisation of radar's military worth occurred after 1940 following exposure to Radar systems
3)The pivotal role of Radar in the defeat of the LW in the BoB
About the OC, without willing to dispute the heroism of the members of the OC,the fact is ,that if there were some clouds,it was impossible for them to discern British from German aircraft,bombers from fighters,the numbers of aircraft,the direction,the speed ,the height .
 
September 1st, 2011   #526
LeEnfield
 
 
lljadw......Even in 1940 they had IFF, this would indicate which aircraft was friendly or not
 
September 2nd, 2011   #527
Seehund
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
About Radar :maybe you could read the following on the Web:radarpages.coUKDeflating British Radar myths in WWII.
The 3 myths about Radar:
1)Watson-Watt is the father and sole inventor of Radar
2)Germany's discovery and realisation of radar's military worth occurred after 1940 following exposure to Radar systems
3)The pivotal role of Radar in the defeat of the LW in the BoB
I have worked with radar for over twenty years - so I know.
Moreover, I do not agree with Gregory Clark. It is only one man's Appraisal. I've seen very thorough evaluations of the British HC which concludes the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
About the OC, without willing to dispute the heroism of the members of the OC,the fact is ,that if there were some clouds,it was impossible for them to discern British from German aircraft,bombers from fighters,the numbers of aircraft,the direction,the speed ,the height .

No its not!

A trained observer can easily tell the difference between a British and German aircraft engine solely on the sound. Besides it is such, that if you cant positively identify a target as friendly, then its considered hostile.

The number of aircraft would obviously need to be an estimate. But one can easily assess whether is 10 or 100.

When a plane passes, you can easily assess what direction it comes from and in what direction it disappears without you ever seeing the plane.

So if observation post A detects that a number of aircraft have passed them in a certain direction and if OP-B ten minutes later observe these aircraft, then I now have an approximate compass heading and knowing the distance between the OP-A and OP-B, and the Time for the first and second observation I can now calculate an approximate speed.

The height of the cloud cover is known by the meteorologist in the command center
If you collect all this information in the command center then you get a good overview of the situation.

And this is the way it was done and it works. This is a fact. The Danish OC has used the same approach from 1938 to 2004. I have experienced it in practice.
 
September 2nd, 2011   #528
mmarsh
 
 
Nice explanation Seehund!


"My center is giving way, my right is in retreat situation excellent. I shall attack." -Foch

I am from NYC. I fly a French flag because I work in Paris.
 
September 3rd, 2011   #529
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seehund
I have worked with radar for over twenty years - so I know.
Moreover, I do not agree with Gregory Clark. It is only one man's Appraisal. I've seen very thorough evaluations of the British HC which concludes the opposite.


No its not!

A trained observer can easily tell the difference between a British and German aircraft engine solely on the sound. Besides it is such, that if you cant positively identify a target as friendly, then its considered hostile.

The number of aircraft would obviously need to be an estimate. But one can easily assess whether is 10 or 100.

When a plane passes, you can easily assess what direction it comes from and in what direction it disappears without you ever seeing the plane.

So if observation post A detects that a number of aircraft have passed them in a certain direction and if OP-B ten minutes later observe these aircraft, then I now have an approximate compass heading and knowing the distance between the OP-A and OP-B, and the Time for the first and second observation I can now calculate an approximate speed.

The height of the cloud cover is known by the meteorologist in the command center
If you collect all this information in the command center then you get a good overview of the situation.

And this is the way it was done and it works. This is a fact. The Danish OC has used the same approach from 1938 to 2004. I have experienced it in practice.
Hm,you used the word "trained observer" =experienced observed,and,I doubt that many members of the OC had the opportunity,between september 1939 and august 1940,to practize/experience what you have ,very good,explained,because,in that period,there were not that many Germain aircraft that were,daily/weekly,penetrating the air space of the UK.
 
September 3rd, 2011   #530
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
lljadw......Even in 1940 they had IFF, this would indicate which aircraft was friendly or not
You got me,I was convinced that the IFF only later was used .
But,OTOH,there always is one otherhand,after some searching,I found the following source:
battleofbritain1940.net/document-14 High Frequency Direction Finding.
And, there, is stated the following
IFF worked reasonably well but it did have its failings.In dogfights it became impossible to distinghuish one aircraft from another.Many times friendly aircraft were not able to be detected while at time they were easily seen .
In practice,the IFF system was later to be found to be not totally reliable,and accurate aircraft identification remained founded on the judgement made at Filter Rooms,where information about aircraft movements of home forces was available.
Source:Peter Flintowding &Headquarters Fighting Command P173 Airlife
 



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