I think when it comes to the overall picture, Easy-8 is pretty close to the truth.

Originally Posted by LeEnfield

The German invasion of Russia.......Well at first the Germans were greeted with open arms in places, but when the SS arrived and started wiping them out then the mood changed. Also Germany never had the manpower to Conquer Russia and control the vast areas.
Normandy............Personally I don't think the Allies would have been thrown back even if Hitler had released the Panzer's earlier. With Allied Air Power and Naval Gunfire they would have still been held, yes the fighting might have been bloodier but in the long run I feel the result would have still been the same.

Just wanted to pick you up on a couple of points. Firstly, it was never a lack of manpower that prevented Germany conquering Russia and secondly, the panzers were released as early as they could be in Normandy. The problem was that:

1. There were contradictory orders about where the panzers should be placed. Rundstedt preferred to have the panzers placed inland near Paris (in this he was supported by Guderian & Schweppenburg) whereas Rommel wanted them placed near the beaches.
2. Rommel placed some panzer divisions for political rather than military reasons. He wanted some army units close at hand for the anticipated aftermath of a successful plot to kill Hitler

As a result, Hitler placed them neither near the beaches nor near Paris as Rundstedt and Guderian wanted. Allied airpower would have held any large-scale German counterattack anyway so I agree with you there.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

secondly, the panzers were released as early as they could be in Normandy

Doppleganger So are you saying that their deployment wasn't delayed by the inability to obtain Hitler's permission (whether he was asleep or not) and Rommel's remoteness from the action at the crucial time?

Dopleganger..........Germany never had the manpower to control the whole of Russia, they could not even control the Partisan behind their lines regardless of what the did to the civilian population. Their are German reports of them driving for days across the Russian plains and seeing any thing, no roads, no buildings, no people. Now just how do you control an area like that.
With the Germans having to keep large forces in the areas that they had all ready conquered through out Europe plus their adventure in North Africa, Greece and the Balklands. Also they then had to keep a million people in Germany in the later years to protect the Germany from the air assault, so Hitler would never have the man Power to all of this.

Yes a more concentrated effort on from the U Boats on blockade of Britain would have had a profound effect, but Hitler and Admiral Reader did not have enough U Boats to implement this, and by the time they had started to build up the U Boat fleet, Britain had developed many counter measures and were reading the German orders as quick as the Germans could write them

Originally Posted by LeEnfield

Dopleganger..........Germany never had the manpower to control the whole of Russia, they could not even control the Partisan behind their lines regardless of what the did to the civilian population. Their are German reports of them driving for days across the Russian plains and seeing any thing, no roads, no buildings, no people. Now just how do you control an area like that.

I think this was only going to be a short term problem for them though as given 10-15 years of occupation there would not have been a lot Russians left to control.

Yes a more concentrated effort on from the U Boats on blockade of Britain would have had a profound effect, but Hitler and Admiral Reader did not have enough U Boats to implement this, and by the time they had started to build up the U Boat fleet, Britain had developed many counter measures and were reading the German orders as quick as the Germans could write them

I agree the cracking of Enigma and the German lack of desire or inability to realise that their codes had been broken was a huge problem for them, I guess that would also bring into question German military intelligence throughout the war as time and again they got it completely wrong.

Originally Posted by perseus

Doppleganger So are you saying that their deployment wasn't delayed by the inability to obtain Hitler's permission (whether he was asleep or not) and Rommel's remoteness from the action at the crucial time?

I'm not saying that, just that there were several factors involved in their deployment. I touched upon Rommel's ulterior motives and the remoteness of Rommel from the action was down to several factors, not all of them military ones. By 1944, the German upper level chain of command was effectively paralyzed by Hitler, both due to his insistence at micromanaging both Eastern and Western fronts and his onset of Parkinson's Disease. Under the circumstances, and factoring in what I posted before, I don't think the panzers could have been deployed much quicker than they were. Remember too that:

• their deployment was all over the place, due to Hitler trying to keep both Rommel and Rundstedt happy
• Rommel had deployed several formations in lieu of a successful military coup
• allied air power would have blunted any major deployment of German armour, assuming the weather held up (it didn't always of course)

@ Lee Enfield - the Germans did not have to physically control the whole of Russia, just the parts up the AA Line, essentially European Russia. For that they had more than enough men. The Nazi's had big, rather nasty, plans for Russia and there might not have been too many ethnic Russian peoples around if the Nazis had gotten their way.

Not sure they were ever really outclassed but certainly outgunned and outnumbered.

A book called "Rhineland" will open a few eyes about how incompetent the Alllies were with even superior weapons and manpower.

The Germans biggest error (as already stated by many) was going East and they effectively blew their chances at Moscow, 1941.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

the Germans did not have to physically control the whole of Russia, just the parts up the AA Line, essentially European Russia. For that they had more than enough men.

Well the European Russia is part of Russia with most dense population and with most dense infrastructure. Somewhere in Ciberia the Germans could control ENTIRE territory by controlling main cities/towns and few communications, but not Western part. They won't have manpower enough, especially, if war in Italy and/or Normandy breaks out and manpower is more needed there.

And history shows, that even if Germans had `enough man for it`, they weren't able to control their occupied territories properly.

"Having a megalomaniac making strategic combat decisions didn't help much either."

agreed. I also agree that if Germany would of headed to Moscow, things might be different right now, but with battles like Stalingrad it really kind of sealed the deal.

They were headed to Moscow. The Red Army stopped them.