IG,

You misunderstand, I wasnt accusing you.

I have noticed on the boards that communism is a very touchy subject for some (not you), your post just reminded me that I had better spell out exactly where I stood as some people might misinterpret my remarks as being pro-communist. Thats all.

I think history has condemned all the Communist Revolutionary leaders as Butchers, and Marx as being totally wrong.

I agree with statement that all communist governments are totalitarian in nature. I would also say that I cannot think of a single example where Communism wasnt brought on by bloodshed.

The basic concepts behind communism are as old as organized government.

Marx and Lenin gained fame by codifying and solidifying various socialist theories into an appearantly practicable form.

The truth is, all communist theory is a pipe dream loved by utopianists that have one unifying incompetence binding them all. They are totally incapable of understanding basic human nature.

Communism as a theory sounds all peachy keen and wonderful.
communism in practice must coincide with an aggressive terror inspiring police state.

While nasty police states can exist without communism, communism can not exist without its nasty thugs to force humans into robotic uniformity.

Communism in all it's forms and theories is also a sham. There can be no human society without having someone in charge. And that person or persons must be supported and assisted by others selected by what ever means. There is no way that any human society can exist without some form of stratified possition holders who, by their vary nature will demand treatment and or pay different from those whom they are placed over.

Communism - as has existed so far - has also uniformly degenerated into cult of personality and has become more akin to oligarchy.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Just to be clear, Sunb! and I are only talking differences in communist political ideology; we are not defending it. They all commited murder, Lenin, Trotsky, Beria (a real sicko), Stalin. Just like there were various schools of thought on Facism, Nazi Germany was not the same Moussani's Italy or Franco's Spain and yet they all committed mass murder. Same thing.

Yes many schools and various entries to Facism and National Socialism just as it is to what we call Communism today, but again I believe that there are no real theory of Communism but more a political system that has adopted many ideas and basics from the other participants in the normal political evolution.

It also is a question on the leaders of the system and their means of remaining in power; mass murder and concentration camps are such means but they are more related to the dictators paranoia and fear of loosing power than to the theory of no social classes and cooperative work and ownership.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Just to be clear, Sunb! and I are only talking differences in communist political ideology; we are not defending it.

Just to be clear mmarsh; I am doing the same thing.

It's very simple, communism is state-run economy.

i think communism in its ideal state is fine. its just that us human beings are too selfish to ever let it exist.

in a communist state, money would be non-existent. if i needed food, i would go to the farmer, and get what i needed, and only what i needed. but we see that human selfishness will not let this happen. if someone sees free food, he will take as much as he can, eat what he wants, and throw away the rest.

i think the only way communism would ever exist is if the people being subjected to it had never been exposed to anything else.

It would also take someone of genious beyond the concieveable rhelm of human ability to control.

Most of us can't work a TV remote, what makes you think that one human can controll an entire economy?

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

It's very simple, communism is state-run economy.

No, thats Socialism. Communism is Socialism but underneath the watchful eye of a single, all supreme political party, 'a big brother' to quote George Orwell.

One factor I see missing was Dulles's assessment during the Vietnam war and the height of the Cold War. He quite accurately factored that communism had an appeal to the masses that capitalism did not. He said the difference between the two competing theories was communism empowered the people whereas capitalism exploited the masses for the benefit of the few at the top and he further lamented there was no way to doctor this up to make it appealing to the poor people of countries rapidly becoming infatuated with communism. Bear in mind he was speaking of the theory and not the actual practice because the former was more important to combat during this time. The conditions of the actual practice were to come later and are now hindsight to us but at that time it would have required precognition and there was simply not enough evidence to present to the masses rising up in communist movements around the globe.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

No, thats Socialism. Communism is Socialism but underneath the watchful eye of a single, all supreme political party, 'a big brother' to quote George Orwell.

Well your adition isn't incorrect but what I stated isn't socialism.

Socialism is controll over the distribution of goods and services.
Communism is controll over the production of goods and services.

Socialism is gov't sponsored healthcare, social security, welfare checks, food stamps. Communism is when you have central planners making decisions on what should be made and in how much and then dolling out those products back to the society.

Actually, you can read Marx's own words to learn that communism is simply a codified socialism.

He took many aspects from many socialist beliefs that were popular in the streets of France at that time. He's even stated that he was disgusted with what he called soft socialism.

Communism is the abolition of personal property. The abolition of any and all class distinction. The abolition of any and all pay differences.
Under communism, the government owns everything. All loyalty is owed to the government, beyond loyalty to family or any other. this is why religion must be destroyed before communism can take root. No loyalty is allowed beyond that of the party member to the party.

Under communism, the party decides where a man lives, where he works, how long he works, what he works at, what time he shows up, what time he goes home and what he's allowed to do before showing up at work for his next shift.

It is truely a workers paradice. Everyone is equal in all ways and all manners. There are no bosses, no one over anyone. All is share and share alike.

Under communism you must demonstrate loyalty to the party. Loyalty beyond family, friend and coworker. This is demonstrated by denouncing any real or percieved infractions of your family, friends and coworkers to your local party boss. It is your duty and your privilage to denounce those around you. If you show reluctance to denounce then you must, of course, be disloyal yourself and by your own admission you have then denounced yourself.