Englander2
I love it ... you toss around all sorts of garbage as far as I am concerned, and continue to deny (or) ignore the root cause of the present conflict. All of the "land" garbage means exactly nothing ... what is driving this conflict is Hezbollah's and Hamas's continuing terrorist attacks against men, women and children Inside Israel's borders. To top that off, these groups along with their masters (Iran and Syria), continue to publicly preach their doctrine of hate for the Jewish people. They continue to call for the annihilation of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people.

You can try to paint history any way you like and try to excuse Hezbollah and Hamas terrorism ... but ... in this case that history is just a collection of historical flotsam that adds nothing to the resolution of the conflict.

Until Hezbollah and Hamas renounce their stated goal of wiping Israel and call off their jihad against the Jewish people, Israel has no choice but to resort to military force. To do otherwise would invite even more attacks. Peace overtures evidently mean nothing to Hezbollah and Hamas ... Israel tried that approach and what did it solve ... just more and more attacks.

The fact that most human bomb targets have a high density of civilians looks pretty bad for a peaceful solution. When your Wife and kids go to the market, you don't want their next stop to be the morgue. I guess I would personally propose an action similar to the IDF if that happened to my family. Most soldiers will show more restraint when they are attacked than when their families are.

Thank you、Englander2
I read your valuable opinion.
I need more intellectual person as you.
I assume that Israel is illegal nation,what is the best way to solve this plobrem.
As Mr Ahmadinejad insists,
Israel should be wiped out and all jewish go to Deutchland and US,UK to build IsraelⅡ　and IsraelⅢ　and IsraelⅣ　and　Isｒ・・・・
I have no idea.
Do you have any idea to stop this situation?

Topic: Weapons To Israel.
Hello Chief Bones and Sandy
Chief's remarks " garbage means exactly nothing" and that the "root cause of the present conflict is being ignored," may be his opinion and are probably meant honestly, but have little to do with the facts of the case. For example which of Israel's borders are being referred to, The legal ones of 1948, those claimed in 1967, or are the additional occupied territories to be included?
While I agree the call for the annihilation of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people is extreme, the study of history is needed to find out what has gone wrong. Hezbollah and Hamas were not grounded for the fun of it, anymore than were Hagana and Lechi. I repeat once more, because it has not sunk in by some, terrorists are not born as such, but are the result of false policies!
To say, "in this case that history is just a collection of historical flotsam that adds nothing to the resolution of the conflict." Is to admit one is not ready to learn from mistakes made in the past. There can be little doubt however, that some of the same mistakes were made during the creation of Israel in 1948 as had been after WW1 by the creation of Czechoslovakia and nobody learnt from that chaos. In both cases the native populations of areas within the new states were not given enough consideration.
By resorting to military force Israel just makes the injustices worse. To say they had no other choice, is not true, the offer of talks and an exchange of prisoners were deliberately spurned. Nobody would expect Israel to crawl on its knees, but a fair and open discussion with its neighbours could bring a stop to the atrocities on both sides. This has worked with Egypt and Jordan for some years, to the advantage of all three countries. Unfortunately, a few more attacks on innocent women and children by Israel may even end this fragile peace. The country has lost many friends due to its handling of this unnecessary crisis.
On the other hand, to wipe Israel off the map, as Sandy proposes is also no solution. We are not just dealing with nations, but with human beings! It is as wrong to kill or deport thousands of innocent people just because they belong to a certain ethnic group or religion, as it would be to shoot a person who gets in the way when you are hunting a lion.
To the question as to any ideas to stop this situation, of course I have, but they have little hope of success as long as such countries as the USA and Iran are ready to use war to increase their political influence.
By the way, Garbage is a useful material to produce natural gas, that would help to explain some of Chief's, arguments.

Originally Posted by Englander2

In answer to the borris116 question concerning my last post, is following to be said:
It is of no bother to give the source of information required. But although adequate for general discussions, the lack of details concerning day, month of the count, or whether only native, not visiting Jews are being related to, it is unlikely that this souce is suitable for educational or historical studies.
The statement, " In the year 1900 only about 600 Jews (Jishuw) lived in the region, that is less than the number who were living in the British town of Brighton at the time!" is based on a summary of events and names concerning the creation of the new state of Israel. The summary is part of a collection of documents privately obtained over a number of years, it has itself not been published, but is an important part of the collection which includes:
The "Palestine Mandate of the league of Nations" Written in English.
The "Mandate Period" written by Samik K. Fasoun and Christina Zacharia, also in English
(These authors just refer to a small native Jewish community).
The following articles from the German educational brochure "Geschichte lernen" No. 83 (2001)
"Ein Land-zwei Voelker" by Dietmar von Reeken. In German.
"Palaestina zu Beginn der zionistischen einwanderung" by Alexeander Flares. In German.
" Der Unabhangigkeitskrieg Israels und das Schicksal der Palaestinenser" by Mathias Pophanken
as well as " Zionismus" by Erik Pelry, also in German.

Why I have an idea that your sources are anti-Semitic through and through?

This kind of literature that makes outrageous claims is good only for people who WANTS to believe in it.

England2
We are discussing the present conflict in the Middle East ... your comments would mean something if we were talking about resolving the disputes in a peaceful sit-down where all parties recognized each others right to exist.

This is NOT the situation we face, we are discussing a situation where multiple terrorist groups are ONLY interested in wiping out Israel and are NOT interested in any kind of peaceful coexistence with Israel. Israel has been attacked and can see no other solution to the constant attacks on their civilian population other than a military solution. We are seeing that other Arab countries are pulling the strings to cause the Hezbollah and Hamas groups to attack Israel and their civilians with terrorist tactics.

Your historical "understanding" has a much possibility of resolving this conflict as a fart in a hurricane. My "garbage means exactly nothing" & "the root cause of the present conflict is being ignored" quotes are right on point for this particular thread.

Your opinion, however, just doesn't fit this thread topic ... it WOULD fit into a discussion of what needs to be done only after the fighting stops and impartial troops take up the patrol of a buffer zone. Until that happens, any discussion of the "facts" you quoted is just so much hot air. It will NOT add anything to a possible ceasefire and hoped for cessation of hostilities.

PART ONE: MORE WEAPONS?

Official IDF Statement Concerning Troop Strength: "IDF's strength is far greater than the competing strength of the two problems on the two fronts. Hezbollah will probably surprise us in the coming days, only we will surprise them much more."

What does this Mean?: It means exactly what is stated. The power of the Israeli military is "far greater" than that of Hamas and Hezbollah. We might as well add the states bordering Israel. I realize that some forum members will treat the latter statement as an excuse to compare the IDF with, say, Iran on a man for man basis. But the more astute members will understand that such an exercise is just a waste of time.

Does Israel Need More Weapons?: No. The IDF is attacking "terrorist formations" that cannot be cut off from their supply bases or encircled. The IDF will have to pound Hezbollah bunker by bunker. Israel already has the equipment required. They only need an international UN force to occupy S. Lebanon when the fighting stops. Israel has chosen the German army for this role. Olmert: "There is at the moment no nation that is behaving in a more friendly way toward Israel than Germany".

PART TWO: ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST?

This issue is not really even an issue. Israel does not exist because of archaeological digs, or the Bible, or Joseph and Jacob. Israel exists because the UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Israel's borders are legally recognized, guys.

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpa...docid=54435.EN

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Originally Posted by Englander2

Topic: Weapons To Israel.
For example which of Israel's borders are being referred to, The legal ones of 1948, those claimed in 1967, or are the additional occupied territories to be included?

Englander2,
Could you explain by whose authority any country in the Middle East was established? Who authorized the borders of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lebanon, or Syria? Were their borders etched by a higher power at the beginning of time? Just wondering where one gets an official authorization and if it's legal.

Originally Posted by Missileer

Englander2,
Could you explain by whose authority any country in the Middle East was established? Who authorized the borders of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lebanon, or Syria? Were their borders etched by a higher power at the beginning of time? Just wondering where one gets an official authorization and if it's legal.

Now now - Missileer don't confuse Englander by gasp 'facts'. (Sorry Englander - couldn't help myself).

This an observation that certain members will NOT want to get into a discussion over. The fact that borders have been fluid through history as a result of the exercise of force, will NOT be viewed with favor by certain factions, (Hezbollah, Hamas, Palestinians and some Lebanese).

OG said it all

Israel does not exist because of archaeological digs, or the Bible, or Joseph and Jacob. Israel exists because the UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Israel's borders are legally recognized, guys.

You can hem and haw, but the fact remains that Israel's borders are legally recognized by the UN (the paper tiger so many people swear by (or at).

Hello,
To boris116 question, "Why I have an idea that your sources are anti-Semitic through and through?" and the statement, "This kind of literature that makes outrageous claims is good only for people who WANTS to believe in it."
Most of the articles mentioned are/were used for High school education in Germany. If we accept the statement of "Chief Bones": - Israel has chosen the German army for this role. Olmert - and, "There is at the moment no nation that is behaving in a more friendly way toward Israel than Germany", it is obvious that boris116 has read none of the above, but allows himself to give a judgement on the same.

I certainly would also agree with the Chief's comment, "We are discussing the present conflict in the Middle East," but I had been asked (by boris116) to provide my Source of information, and if I had not done so, somebody would surely have raised the question as to the accuracy of my comments.

It is also quite clear that "We are seeing that other Arab countries are pulling the strings to cause the Hezbollah and Hamas groups to attack Israel and their civilians with terrorist tactics." However the same might be said for the help given to Israel by the USA. The answer to the question as to why this should be, can only be found by looking at the history of the region, so that the same mistakes are not made in the future. If we do not, " the root cause of the present conflict is being ignored!"
To say, "The power of the Israeli military is far greater" than that of Hamas and Hezbollah" is probably also true and Israel certainly does not need more weapons, unless of course, these are being supplied because another war is in the offing.
Discussions are in some ways similar to wars.To be successful, one must try to understand how the other side is thinking. To abuse the opponents, may be good for a short laugh, but it cannot in any way replace shrewd arguments. Or does anybody want to reduce this discussion to just saying yes or no?
There are various ways to discontinue conflicts, one is to destroy the opposition completely, (this is in the Middle-East practically impossible). Another, less bloody is to come to an agreement (why have both sides refused to do so, in this case?) The worst ,to my mind, (as in WW1), to keep going so long that both sides get tired of fighting and need a few years to recover before starting again. But that is history once more, and so I shall not delve deeper into this possibility out of respect for my learned friends!