The Democratic Capital is now called Ho Chi Minn City, we basically wasted lives, money, and time. I dont think it matters much who won "militarly".

definitely didnt lose.

FMJ, the eloquence of your argument is deafening.

Originally Posted by bulldogg

FMJ, the eloquence of your argument is deafening.

I couldn't agree more not to mention all of those cites to back up the argument.

He's right.

On a military stand point the US didnt loose. We had a great kill ratio and we were able to adapt to the enviroment and protect our allies. When we turned it over to the Vietnamese they lost it.

Maybe you guys work out of a different set of rules than I do, but in my book surrendering and going home is defeat.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Maybe you guys work out of a different set of rules than I do, but in my book surrendering and going home is defeat.

Surrendering is dropping your weapon and raising a white flag. That didn't happen.
Don't tell this guy he surrendered, at least not to his face.
http://www.mishalov.com/Davis_S.html

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Maybe you guys work out of a different set of rules than I do, but in my book surrendering and going home is defeat.

Ya I guess we do, the rule of common sense. You see some of us were actually there. We experienced it, we fought it, and we lived through it. I defy you or anyone else to show me a picture of America's military surrendering. You can't because it's a figment of your imagination, an untruth, a fabricatiion. IT DID NOT HAPPEN!
What did happen was that the politicians here gave in to the communist inspired, supported, and instigated anti-war movement in this country. Luckily for the communists, the US withdrew its forces in the nick of time to avoid their total defeat. Despite the extensive support the North got from China, and the USSR, the US never lost a major battle in Vietnam, period. No matter how you try to twist it, that is the truth.

Aye, to my reckoning this is no different than what happened to the French Foreign Legion in Algeria. The politicians sold the soldiers out. They felt so strongly about it that they tried to overthrow the government. In the states the result was record low morale for about a decade or so from what I have read.

The Only Way I Know To Make My Point Is To Holler (sorry).

THE UNITED STATES MILITARY DID NOT LOSE ONE SINGLE MAJOR BATTLE OR OFFENSIVE OPERATION IN THE ENTIRE TIME WE WERE INVOLVED IN OPERATIONS IN VIETNAM (PERIOD).

THE POLITICIANS LOST THIS WAR BECAUSE THEY BOWED TO THE "PEACENIK'S, COMMIES, FLOWER CHILDREN, MASS MEDIA LIBERALS AND PROPAGANDA MACHINE OF THE COMMUNIST WORLD (NORTH VIETNAM, RED CHINA, USSR, ETC.). THEY FLEW THE "YELLOW" FLAG OF COWARDICE NOT THE "WHITE" FLAG OF SURRENDER (PERIOD).

Like tomtom22, Vietnam is NOT and NEVER will be a subject where I can be calm, cool and collected. I will never talk about specific times, places, people, sights, smells or a thousand other things from that period of my life. I will tell you that almost every minute and almost every second of some of those nightmares will always be with me. My wife can testify to the nightmares suffered through many years and the nights she had to sleep on the floor because of my flailing arms. The "drawer" has finally closed for me and I am mostly at peace.


As Missileer said "Surrendering is dropping your weapon and raising a white flag. That didn't happen".

The man or women that comes up to me and tries to say that myself and comrades lost the war in Vietnam does it at their own peril.

As far as "Hanoi Jane" is concerned, I told one of my ship's captains that if she ever came aboard a ship I was on that I would throw her over the side and I didn't care if it were the water side or the dock side. I had made Chief by then and he knew I was 100% serious - he even stated that he would order me to temporary shore duty if she was ever expected to visit our ship. The fact that I am retired now has not changed my feelings toward her - I would STILL toss her over the side even after all these years and hope she landed on her head. I absolutely refuse to watch ANY movie she is in or ANY show where she is a guest.

Note to Italian Guy:
As you can tell, it's been almost forty years and the scars caused by that damn war are still not completely healed. Don't be surprised if you receive many many many votes on your poll but very few responses in the form of a post. Sitting here it is almost impossible for me to keep from having "flash back" memories even though I have for the most part been able to close the door on those memories enough that the nightmares are a thing of the past. I hope you can forgive those that just can't bring themselves to comment in this forum - they are not ready (even today) to discuss those memories.

Addendum for Vietnam Vets:
If you ever get the chance and are ready for it - visit the Vietnam Memorial in Washington DC. After many years of nightmares and not understanding why I couldn't shake them, a visit to the memorial brought home a lot of buried feelings and memories. I LIVED AND SO MANY OTHERS DIDN'T - it was an eye opener. I DON'T RECOMMEND IT UNLESS YOU THINK YOU ARE READY TO FACE THOSE FEELINGS. God bless you and may you find peace.