[quote=Devil505;416380]

Originally Posted by AZ_Infantry

My friend, you are king of the Red Herring fallacy.


........."I love how the dems seem to forget that Bush didn't start this war."

OK...Then I'll bite....Who did start this war? (& please dont try to spin Iraq into being involved in the 9/11/2001 attacks that even the Bush admin admitts they had nothing to do with)
OK...Let me get this straight......Al Quieda, using mainly Sauid Arabian nationals, attacks us on 9/11/2001 from a planning base in Afganistan &, to retaliate............We invade Iraq!? ( sounds like a great idea!! .....If GW Bush had been President at the time of the 1941 Pearl Harbor attack, should we have invaded Fiji???...Nah...How about Sweden? (can never trust those sneaky Swedes!)

Well, if you REALLY want to get specific, Kennedy started this war when he implemented a sales policy of US-made weapons to Iraq; Reagan added to it when he sold arms to Iran and Afghanistan to thwart (then) the USSR's "invasion;" Clinton then made the decision to retaliate for Iraq's invasion of Kuwait; Bush is dealing with the mess of a foreign policy that has been screwed more times than my ex-wife; and the UN is doing what they do best: Absolutely nothing but relying on the US to mop up their mess.

And where in the WORLD, in any single one of my posts, anywhere at all on these forums for any time that I have been here, have I ever once stated that Bush went into Iraq because of 9/11?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be combative... But don't put words in my mouth. I never claimed the Iraq war was a result of 9/11, nor do I believe it is or was. That tangent isn't going to fly with me, bro.

Iraq and Afghanistan are indeed tied together in many ways. The correlation isn't 9/11 though - it's in their political agreements and arrangements. I'm not going to sit here and lecture history, but a few facts:

Afghanistan is what's known as a "faction state." That is, tribal wars (not unlike S Africa) control the country's influences, not any established government. When the Taliban came to power as the authoritive figurehead faction circa 1984, A-Stan basically became an Opiate cash cow ruled by terror. We should know this, as we sold them the small arms and missiles and munitions to accomplish their stranglehold when they resisted Russia as an opposing force (the US has vested interest in A-Stan's political and geographical position).

Sadam has always been known as a terrorist collaborater. Always. Sadam met many, many times with Al-Queda leaders in private - these ramped up after UN weapon inspectors filed a complaint that Sadam was moving WMDs from location to location and stalling their efforts to inspect suspected caches of what was then thought to be a variation of Mustard gas that was used on the village of [whatever it was called] that massacred the Kurds and their resistance of the Iranian fundamentalists.

In 1990, Sadam ordered an invasion of Kuwait, a UN-protected nation.

Then-president Clinton followed the UN resolution to repel this attack, at which time the council embargoed Iraq and formed the coalition to stop Sadam. After we whipped his ass like the child he was, we established no-fly zones, weapons inspections, and demanded he comply with orders to stop torturing collaborators and cease any talks with any established terrorist organizations.

Sadam refused compliance by tap dancing around all of these issues, constantly toeing the line, and the idiot that was Clinton pulled us out anyway as mission complete.

Over the next 10 years, Sadam met hundreds of times with senior Al-Queda leaders. They did business together. His terror continued. A-Stan prospered from the alliance formed and the Talliban was given what basically amounts to free reign of the area. Then Iran jumped on board, ending the Iraq conflict for a common enemy: The United States. The infidels.

When 9/11 occurred, America finally said "enough is enough" and we went to the heart of the problem: We nailed both A-Stan and Iraq. So there IS correlation, but not in the way you choose to look at it.

If we just did A-Stan, the Talliban moves to Iraq. If we just do Iraq, they stay in A-Stan. Either way, our soil gets violated eventually. That is the way of warring against idealogical fanatics killing in the name of their god.

Iraq has needed attention for 40+ years. We've ignored it. Finally America is off its ass with a 52-card deck of what amounts to people that should have been assassinated were it not for the squeemish liberals that view death as intolerable. The CIA could have ended this war before it ever started, but noooooooo.... God forbid killing happens. Right to a fair trial and all that garbage that these people aren't afforded because they aren't members of the Geneva Convention (by their own choosing).

If Clinton would have just ended this when we (the military) told him to, we'd be in a much less of a pickle than we are now. Instead, we've created more of our own problems. It's not only his fault - lots of things led to this mess. And GW isn't helping matters, that's for sure.

[quote=AZ_Infantry;416381][quote=Devil505;416380]

......"Well, if you REALLY want to get specific, Kennedy started this war when he implemented a sales policy of US-made weapons to Iraq........"





If you REALLY want to get specific, Adam (a known neocon Republican.......& actually the only one at the time ) started this war when he took a bite of that damned apple! (You see.....fruit had skyrocketed in price, due to the gasoline prices of the day. Adam's microwave oven was broken & he wanted a snack..........SO......the rest is history)

Seriously, I dont have time to give your long post the attention it deserves right now, so I'll have to get back to you later.

[quote=Devil505;416384][quote=AZ_Infantry;416381]

Originally Posted by Devil505

......"Well, if you REALLY want to get specific, Kennedy started this war when he implemented a sales policy of US-made weapons to Iraq........"





If you REALLY want to get specific, Adam (a known neocon Republican.......& actually the only one at the time ) started this war when he took a bite of that damned apple! (You see.....fruit had skyrocketed in price, due to the gasoline prices of the day. Adam's microwave oven was broken & he wanted a snack..........SO......the rest is history)

Seriously, I dont have time to give your long post the attention it deserves right now, so I'll have to get back to you later.

Horse manure. It was Eve's fault! B1tch should have been in the kitchen cooking her man up some vittles, not talking to snakes in forbidden trees with shiny fruit. See what happens when we give em the vote? It's anarchy, I tell you, anarchy!

(That's a total joke for the dense among us)



Take yer time, bro. I am on vacation in Florida just loving life right now, so I am rushing nothing. My wife is at work (she's a professional Yoga instructor, as well as a Horticulturalist and a Linguist) and I'm a do some dishes and get ready to change her oil and stuff today for her.

As much as I enjoy a debate, I can just as easily talk about dinner last night or how much I am enjoying my time here. Politics can wait.

On that note (pictures to lighten the mood), check out these HUMONGOUS raw oysters I had last night! My GOD were they good!











Had to have alligator bites, too, of course!







My beautiful wife, Laurie. Ignore the ant bite on her face. We've been doing some work here and the sweat has irritated it so now it looks like a pimple, poor thing, LOL. Not bad for 45, eh?







Her showing off. God I love those jeans!













And I am sorry for the hijack, but we needed to lighten the mood!

God bless, everyone!

Man that looks like good food.
I've been eating crap for the past few months.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Man that looks like good food.
I've been eating crap for the past few months.

You know that you are always welcome to join us, bro. Me casa ist a su casa! Whether it be here or in AZ, my home is always open to you!

[quote=AZ_Infantry;416381][


While I disagree with your assesment that Saddam Huessein was involved with Al Queada & that our invasion of Iraq was somehow an inevitable conclusion to 40 years of US-Iraq relations, I will simply let Dick Cheney's 1994 warnings of what a full scale invasion of Iraq would entail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I

Thanks AZ.
Hope everything's going dandy.
Yeah the Saddam Hussein - Al Qaeda link is flimsy at best.
Osama Bin Laden's target not only included the United States but also secular leaders of Muslim countries such as Saddam Hussein and Hosni Mubarak.
The only thing going for a possible cooperation would be the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing but I think Saddam would be more careful about what he gave these guys because A-Q might use them against Iraq.

The REAL issue right now that causes some people to almost miss Saddam is that people have forgotten that things come in STAGES. You can't have a proper democracy that's worth half a damn without the following.
1) Stability - the people need to know the government is in charge. This is not possible with a newly elected government through a democratic process when there are a LOT of threats lurking.
2) A working economy - Most people, believe it or not, don't give a damn about Jihad. They want to go to work, bring back some money and feed their families and send their kids to school. Again, without getting shot at or blown up but that comes with stability.
3) Infrastructure and industries - This will give the economy some substance and give the country a potential for export. Obviously the one that comes to mind with Iraq is the oil.
THEN you're ready for some damned democracy.
Right now what we have is a bunch of Iraqis who have been promised that if they come out to vote (which they did while under threat of getting shot or bombing by insurgents) things would get much better. Well, the toilets don't flush and the government's still clearly not in control... so that's a big promise that hasn't been kept.

It's like those stupid teachers at my school who "don't believe in controlling the kids with fear." Well, these people are too thick to realize it comes in stages. You instill some level of fear in the first two weeks to get their ears open and THEN you can use reason, positive re-enforcement etc. I refused to give candy to my students because I knew it was bulls*** and sure enough, the kids in the other classes have started to THROW AWAY their candy. But guess what? They're not throwing away praises the praises they earn in my class.

Alright... I got a bit off topic but because I've been so successful, it makes other teachers uncomfortable so I may be transferred or axed.
That is the world now...

I understand that I am a bit late to get involved into this discussion, but i would like to add some points. In my view:

1. We often make a mistake by thinking that our leaders have an unlimited choice of decisions(start the war, end the war etc.). In reality, their choices very limted.
2. I would put the main blame on President Bush-Sr. George H. W. Bush has left too little choice to the next POTUSes when he has left Saddam at his place and made conditions to him based on removing the WMD and establishing the no-fly zones.
3. This decision(very justifiable by the UN resolutions etc.) had opened the door for Saddam to not only remain in power but increase his grip on his people and even try to turn his crashing defeat into a splendid victory over the Western coalition. How did it happen?

While the UN inspectors were looking for WMD, Saddam has made sure they will be left with the impression that he is hiding something. Remember all these presidential palaces, inspectors' complains, expuslsions, etc.? All this time (almost 10 years!) his propaganda machine(paid, in part, by the infamous "Food for Oil" program) blamed the US for starvation of the Iraqis. The same program has insured that the Iraqis have been more dependent on Saddam for their basic needs, so he could do whatewer he wanted.
What the US could have done? In my opinion, the were , basically, only two choices:
1. End the inspections, declare that no WMD have been found, announce the end of sanctions.
2. Remove Saddam from power by military means.

It was not possible to continue inspections for much longer - everybody in the world was sick and tired of this mess.

Few words about WMD issue. I am a chemical engineer by education and I believe that a country with very strong petro-chemical industry that has developed, deployed and used chemical weapons, can destroy all her stockpiles of such weapons and the equipment to satisfy the most thorough insepections AND restore the production of the same weapons in very short time (3-5 years at the most) as long as the cadre and documentation have not been destroyed.

So, my point is - if President Gore would ended the inspecions and gave Saddam a clean bill of health(what else he could have done?) Saddam would celebrated the victory ad , by now, have restored his WMD stockpiles.

George W. has chosen the second option. In my opinion, it was a right choice.
However, implementation was a different story...

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/saddam.jpg

Is a heartwarming picture to brighten your day....

Lonnie Courtney Clay

Originally Posted by LeEnfield

When you become the Worlds super power and sign countless agreements with other countries then you will get sucked into these conflicts over the years. Now Iraq had been threat to a number of bordering countries and action had to be taken to get rid of that threat, or do you think that nothing should be done until that country is so strong that becomes a major challenge. What would have happened if some one had stood up to Hitler when he first started to through his weight around, would we have had the second WW, well I for one don't think so.
Now it is all very good you sitting at home saying that you are fed up hearing about the conflict and your countrymen getting killed and wounded, well I don't think that they think it is much fun, but unlike you they feel they have a duty to support their country rather than just whine on about it. Lets face it it is not only Americans that are getting killed out there.

Again, I'll let Dick Cheney answer the question of why what we did in Iraq was & is stupid & makes us less safe in the world right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I