Unfortunately, WHY we are STILL there is a deep, difficult question. There are many forces at work, and there is no easy solution that will not compromise the stability of the region.

From a purely idealological point of view, the democracy isn't set yet. Conflicts and challenges to the government arise anew every day, and they flat out cannot handle it. We have to handle it for them. With the infrastructure in its current disarray, the people will pay the price if we just up and leave. How many were tortured and killed when Mr. Clinton pulled us out in '91?

From the military mindset, leaving Iraq is simply offering terrorists a place to embed. If you want to win a war on a military front, versus a political one -- and it takes both -- then you keep your enemy confused and scrambling. If they get an opportunity to get their logistics together, it strengthens their lines and their resolve. Keep em' running and tired and hungry and uncomfortable.

But the main emphasis is on the political front. The Middle East is a mess. I mean a REAL mess. There is no stability, factions are fighting factions just as they've done for thousands of years, and many of our enemy countries view Iraq as an open door if the US pulls out.

The US has always had a policy to rebuild what we destroy. God only knows why.

I too am sick of watching honorable men die and be maimed for life. War sucks. We talk about "finishing the job," but where's the line between finished and unfinished? I can't answer that. But I trust the military leadership (which is likely a naive mistake on my part) to know when enough is enough, and I'll oppose any politician who demands to dictate otherwise.

Originally Posted by Devil505

Because GW Bush has failed at everything he has ever done so........we made him President!

(new here...why is the word "Tirones" below my name on the left?)

Tirones is a Roman rank denoting your position here as comprised of number of posts and longevity. I'll see can I find the thread that discusses the various rankings for you and then edit it into this post. But it means "private" in today's military terms.

I don't share your opinion on President Bush. As Texas State Governor he was very successful and popular with the state, so he must have been doing something right.

As for his tenure in the seat, GW came into office with more issues on his desk than any president before him. While I don't feel he's handled them all well, I also realize that circumstances did tie his hands a good many times.

Lest we forget, the president makes decisions based on information handed down from advisory committees. Poor or improperly interpretted and communicated information leads to poor decisions, so we're remiss to place the blame squarely on his shoulders.

It hurts me too to see American Soldiers/Marines get killed, it does regardless if I'm in Canada. I could go on why, but I won't.
Anyways, back on topic. Although the recent troop surge has been unpopular (obviously), it has been working actually. So pulling troops out would be an extremely difficult process for the last troops to leave because it's not like the common belief that "everyone will leave at once ." It takes years.
Plus, Iraq is in extremely deep trouble here. Some say leaving Saddam would have been a good idea, but he was murdering his people and was a global threat/becoming a global threat or a neighbouring threat. Either one, it didn't look good.
The US didn't plan for insurgent attacks on this level because they never thought this was going to be the case. So what started as a conventional war has evolved into a guerilla war.
So most people that I know of my age who are a bunch of peaceniks, radical global warming believing (my God when will people learn that it ain't real) socialists. And all of them are strongly against the Iraq War and the Afghani one (the one that Canada is involved in). I'm against WAR myself, I WISH that we wouldn't have war, BUT that just isn't the case. So I ask the people who are against these wars: So if the USA leaves Iraq now, what do you think is going to happen? None of them can answer that without realising what idiots they are.
What would happen: Massive civil war (casualties most likely in the hundreds of thousands), a Radicaly-Anti US Fundamentalist Islamist state would be put in power (trouble for the west), Iran could move in (even worse). So I tell them if we leave we'll get hundreds of thousands killed in the Sunni-Shia struggle for the power and then we'll have another enemy in the area. Is it really worth it, seeing as how we've come so far to leave right now? NO WAY. The US has lost about 4000 troops which is historically low compared to other wars if you think about it.
I do believe that the US should be more crackdowns to root out the insurgents from their homes. I believe that they should educate the population towards a more pro-west mentality (because if you kill the body, the mentality lives on so you must kill the mentality and spare the body). The US is so far doing well but it could do better. Aswell, they have to get countries to send more troops their because it will be a much easier process if their are many countries in Iraq instead of a few. Just like WW2, the Brits couldn't of take on the Nazis alone.

Originally Posted by AZ_Infantry

Tirones is a Roman rank denoting your position here as comprised of number of posts and longevity. I'll see can I find the thread that discusses the various rankings for you and then edit it into this post. But it means "private" in today's military terms.

I don't share your opinion on President Bush. As Texas State Governor he was very successful and popular with the state, so he must have been doing something right.

As for his tenure in the seat, GW came into office with more issues on his desk than any president before him. While I don't feel he's handled them all well, I also realize that circumstances did tie his hands a good many times.

Lest we forget, the president makes decisions based on information handed down from advisory committees. Poor or improperly interpretted and communicated information leads to poor decisions, so we're remiss to place the blame squarely on his shoulders.

Open you eyes to the vast damage this President has done to virtualy every aspect of our civilian government, military, economy & international relations. The only reason why he hasn't been impeached & thrown out of office is the Democrats in Congress dont have the courage to do it.

Originally Posted by LeEnfield

Now it is all very good you sitting at home saying that you are fed up hearing about the conflict and your countrymen getting killed and wounded, well I don't think that they think it is much fun, but unlike you they feel they have a duty to support their country rather than just whine on about it. Lets face it it is not only Americans that are getting killed out there.

Amen brother.

I know why we're still there. We broke it, now we bought it. Shame really, since there was no point to it whatsoever and Saddam was actually a strong stabilizing force in the Middle East who just wanted to look like he had WMDs so his neighbors wouldn't mess with him. Oh yeah, and he kept the terrorists out, which is always a good thing.

Buuut now that we're there, we're pretty much boned. As AZ_Infantry said, these people have been fighting for thousands of years. It's ridiculous to think one invasion by the US is going to change all that and magically create a West-friendly democracy. It's just not going to happen unless the locals MAKE it happen.

As for hearts and minds; just imagine if one day your life was interrupted by bombings, followed by an invasion and 5 years of being scared to go outside. As an added bonus, throw in no running water, garbage services, or electricity for most of the day. I think you'd be pretty pissed too. I know I would be.

Major Liability pretty much got it.
At least under Saddam, they had a job, had running water, had a hospital they could walk to without getting blown up or shot, had their toilets flush properly.
We made a promise that we couldn't keep.
And now pulling out ain't an option because if you do, it's going to spread to other countries in the region. Neither the Jordanian or Saudi royal families are hugely popular in the area and they very well could be next... and the consequences of that are just unimaginable.
Like I said... if you mess something up, you gotta fix it.
Economic recession, a potential catastrophe in the Mid East... it just keeps getting better and better.
I say it's a potential catastrophe in the Middle East because if the US and allies pull out, we'll know the true meaning of catastrophe.

Yeah.....That's what the Iraqi people need....A "Strong Man"....Someone who has the power to keep all the various sects from killing eachother. Maybe a little ruthless but someone who'll rule effectively & enforce peace in Iraq. Probaly woiuld have to have military stature & to who all the Iraqi people would have respect for, or at least fear of!.....Hey .....wait a minute!!

Originally Posted by Devil505

Open you eyes to the vast damage this President has done to virtualy every aspect of our civilian government, military, economy & international relations. The only reason why he hasn't been impeached & thrown out of office is the Democrats in Congress dont have the courage to do it.

OK, listen up, son: I don't know how old you are, but I am 37, 2 ex-wives, 5 kids, recently re-married, successful small business in construction... Oh, and I served '89 to '93 (Army Infantry). History should read to you what I've done and seen in those 4 years - make your own assumptions and inferrences.

I'm not going to sidetrack this thread anymore, but how DARE you tell me to open my eyes to the presidential seat? I've been following politics for more than 20 years, and I am well aware of what GW both has and has not done. Before telling me to "open my eyes" you may want to consider who you're talking to, as you haven't a single clue as to my background.

Now, if you wish to continue this college hippy Bush-bashing fest, start a new thread and I'll be glad to bury you in policies and implementations for this country that positively affected us. Otherwise, let's not ruin this man's thread with the a-typical political rhetoric you seem to be a bit lost in.

And for the record, I am not a GW fan by any means. I just get sick of the children that know everything because YouTube told them in a biased CNN bullcrap rant written by some liberal reporter with an agenda that never put boots on the ground.

If that's not you, then I apologize.

But enough stealing this thread with anti- and pro-Bush sentiments. Let's you and me take it to another thread like responsible adults should do, eh?

Originally Posted by AZ_Infantry

OK, listen up, son: I don't know how old you are, but I am 37, 2 ex-wives, 5 kids, recently re-married, successful small business in construction... Oh, and I served '89 to '93 (Army Infantry). History should read to you what I've done and seen in those 4 years - make your own assumptions and inferrences.

I'm not going to sidetrack this thread anymore, but how DARE you tell me to open my eyes to the presidential seat? I've been following politics for more than 20 years, and I am well aware of what GW both has and has not done. Before telling me to "open my eyes" you may want to consider who you're talking to, as you haven't a single clue as to my background.

Now, if you wish to continue this college hippy Bush-bashing fest, start a new thread and I'll be glad to bury you in policies and implementations for this country that positively affected us. Otherwise, let's not ruin this man's thread with the a-typical political rhetoric you seem to be a bit lost in.

And for the record, I am not a GW fan by any means. I just get sick of the children that know everything because YouTube told them in a biased CNN bullcrap rant written by some liberal reporter with an agenda that never put boots on the ground.

If that's not you, then I apologize.

But enough stealing this thread with anti- and pro-Bush sentiments. Let's you and me take it to another thread like responsible adults should do, eh?

Apology accepted,

I am a 61 year old, retired DEA Special Agent who graduated Basic Agent training in May, 1974....just few years after you were born....SON!<G>
Just giving you a had time there (the SON comment), but I'm hardly a hippy! I will admit that my opening line (about opening your eyes) was a bit flip, but I was in a rush & didn't have much time to get my point accross.
My problem is the anger I feel when I look around at the current state of affairs in this country, on almost any level, & I do blame GW Bush (& his admin) for creating a culture of greed, Lies, disregard for the Constitution, disregard for Checks & Balances & the horrible missuse of: our Justice Dept (for whom I worked for many years & love) our military (some Iraq vets have served 4 deployments to Iraq while GW had his dad get him out of the Vietnam War) with 15 month deployments , lack of care for returning vets, etc.
Sorry for the way I jumped in at you but I find it very difficult to watch GW Bush & Dick "7 deferment" Cheney send kids off to die in an occupation that they wouldn't have the guts to get close to!