Funny that - difficult swines, ain't they

When one remembers that Israel was "given" to the Jews, by a country who had no right to go giving away the country of another people. I can't see where your argument comes from.

My ancestry is English, but I think there would be trouble if I were to go back to that country and demand "my" land be returned to me.

Removing the Jews from their homeland was and their right to be there
is far from the simplification you suggest.

It involve many holocausts, they didn't walk out and not come back. You would be aware of the great Jewish prayer and toast 'Next Year - in Jerusalem'.

In the 19th c, when Jerusalem was a grotty outpost of Turkey, the Jewish population and that of christians matched any others.

In the early 20thc, The Zionist agricultural movement was offered the whole of region, free, by the Islamic religious leader in return for support of them against the accusations of the genocide in Armenia. The Zionists refused to accept on principle. That was the only 'given' offer , and the country they first undertook to regenerate was not that you see today.

To begrudge them their homeland and haven in a sliver of the room covered by the Arab nations where oil and space is what they have plenty of is dog in a manger. The area they use is a fraction of their original homeland, most of which designated to the other side. The objection to the existence of Israel is one of the infidel being present in
the land.

However, their enemies develop the invasion Europe and Britain without stopping for breath. We are supposed to accept that without mention, and they NEVER lived here.

As for the fashionable slurs of fascism against Israel and USA, that's the power machine winning the long game. The fascists are on the other side. It is not fascism to defend yourself.

Peace is in the hands of the Palestinians and their puppeteers - stop firing. It's as easy as that. They have no interest in peace - they come from a hospitable culture but are now generations raised and trained in hatred. They cannot be wrong - they are never wrong. Pay the Dane-geld and give 'em a laugh.

I.m afraid you must have been involved with a nostalgic group of Jews with tough but true tales to tell. Should we tell them to shut the f*** up!
Have you told them that, these nice guys .

The Jews I meet here don't bend the knee. They stand up and if necessary they are able to spit in your eye. I mean the men.

I respect your opinions fellas, you are entitled to them. I just am not keen on simplifications and generalisations, even though they make things easier.

I'll thank you in friendship and get off the pot now, I've done this one to death, aiming for truth without bigotry. I hope I speak as a christian, I have no hatred.

Peace is in the hands of the Palestinians and their puppeteers - stop firing. It's as easy as that. They have no interest in peace - they come from a hospitable culture but are now generations raised and trained in hatred. They cannot be wrong - they are never wrong. Pay the Dane-geld and give 'em a laugh.

What,... and suffer losing their country?

The people who make up today's Jewish state are for the most part Europeans and their descendants who had not lived in Palestine for centuries, who then wonder why those who have been robbed of their country resist. This is not a simplification, it is the simple truth, the complications and lies start when others try to justify the occupation of Palestine by outsiders. They have no historical right to Palestine any more than I have a right to any part of England.

I think you would resist in kind, if we Australians just took it upon ourselves to give half of England to the descendants of the pilgrim fathers. One man's terrorist is another man's patriot and never a truer word has been spoken.

That's why I originally said that I'd rather not visit this subject. The truth is so easy to see, unfortunately it's just not very palatable.

It's now 0306 and I'm off to bed.

Ok - just one more try. Jews lived there too. Not so many of either side.
The great number of those who claim rights were also not from the area.
The land, small as it was, was diivided, between Jordan and Israel. Displaced Jews entered Israel. Arab countries blocked Arabs. Jerusalem was always the Jewish capital. Islamic conquest came much later.
And it was conquest, and more holocaust if truth were told. But true, a long time ago. But they were there and there is no doubting that it was their homeland and that they did not leave it voluntarily.
There was never. The Arabs cannot possibly 'Lose their country', as they will tell you that is Arabia.

Let me ask you a silly question. How long have Europeans been in Australia. What would be your claim to stay if the call came? This is your biggest fan talking.


having rolled in the grenade, I shall now beat a hasty retreat. OK I'm in my bunker. Pile it on.

Either way - I'm out of breath now,I'm getting off my soap-box. Incidently - I took no offence regarding your original post. i just wanted to putin my two-pennies worth.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

There is no comparison between the two groups in this respect. Ther is no justification for preaching to Jews about forgetting The Holocaust. This is still living memory my friend. Consult your Grandfather on the issue.
You can forget it all you want, except when it is convenient for use in a debate, but don't tell Jews to.Take a look at my last qoted posted .

As for Israel, your target I assume, always remember the problem they live with. If the great Arab nation stops firing- the war ends. If Israel stops firing - Israel ends.

I am sure America has shown that it knows that, whereas the rest think they can solve all their global problems by sacrificing Israel; after all, they are only Jews. The problem would not go away, it would still come for you and yours given time. And Israel is not kneeling for another holocaust. For some goddarn reason, they are not talking chosen, and not pleading poor me.
Funny that - difficult swines, ain't they.

------------------------------------------------------

I truly wish I could talk to my Grandfather but I can't, he's dead now, and so are most other survivors of WWII. Thats exactly my point, most of those that keep reminding us about Holocaust today didn't actually experience it. They are 2 or 3 generations later. Can you imagine modern Christians continually asking for people to remember those who got fed to the lions in the Roman Arena?

As I told you before, I remember history, I don't dwell on it. I refuse to live my life around on a event that I was in no way responsible for, and that ended 30 years before I was even born. The memories of WWII was my grandparents burden, not mine. I don't think they would want it to be mine either.

If you read what I said I said "certain people (not all)". I cannot speak for Israelis as I have never been to Israel (I am not Jewish), I was referring to certain Jewish communities within the US. There are more Jews in NYC then there are Jerusalem, and the subject of the holocaust is brought up too often by people who were not actually there. If they real survivors it would be a different story...

Nor does every Jew agrees with this. I have listened to Jewish militant groups like the JDL (Jewish Defense League) on TV say that those that keep talking the holocaust are the Jews too weak and cowardly to defend themselves. -I personally think thats going too far, but I see their point.

A Conservative Jewish friend of mine told me he found it demeaning to be always portrayed as a victim. He wasn't at Auschwitz, so he didn't want the sympathy that he was. I completely understand that. My Grandfather was a French POW who was interned at a German camp, I don't want peoples sympathy for that either.

My point is this: The past must be put in the past. That goes for the Arabs like the Palestineans as well. 1948 was unfair to them, but they are never going to get the 1948 land of Israel back. That was their grandparents and great-parents burden. What they need to do is focus on the here and now.

OK MMarsh, Good, we have something. First let me say that I was not being flippant about your grandfather - I deliberately said consult - in case he was no longer with us, in which case you had the power of recall. As it happens, I am also a pragmatist.
Secondly I agree with much of your take, except that of course there are in fact many survivors and I have met many. But the Jews I know here, a great many, do not cling to the past, they are just, well, English - no difference - religion doesn't arise, that is their own business. Not recognisable as a different entity. The point I have been making is that, like your friends, Jews have shrugged off the past, are proud of their heritage and are not weak. The character assassination created pre 1940, however , lingers in generalisation. Here in England mostly they had no wish for a Holocaust day for the very reason that people would say - there they go again, when in fact that is not so.

Israel is can be quite secular in approach and tend to shrug off the conservative religious approach. They are tough and alert. They reminded me of pioneers when i was there. Having said that, it sounds as though you have come across that attitude yourself. We do not have a disagreement here, for my part.

And nothing would delight me more than the two peoples living in peace with each other, but in my experience one side wants much more than peace. As an optimist I look to the day, and I always claimed that strong men would bring it about. But now i am sorely tried. and speak with frustration about the destructive ideologies we are all up against.

I too am sick of this debate, as it is as plain as the nose on one's face where the truth lies.

Ok - just one more try. Jews lived there too.

The operative word here is "lived" past tense. For centuries the Jewish people spread throughout the known world. For some reason they have clung to the entirely false idea that this gives them the right to go back and re-occupy the country of their ancestors. This reasoning would not stand up in any court in the civilised world.

As for their treatment of the people living there, it is nothing better than barbaric. I am not talking about the so called reprisals against the Palestinian patriots, but the enforced acquisition of land to facilitate the expansion of Jewish projects. Houses and groves that have been in the names of Palestinian families for 600 years just bulldozed and occupied with no compensation.

It makes me ashamed to admit to my Jewish heritage.

The holocaust was a tragedy of gigantic proportions, and the world should never be allowed to forget it. But it is a humanitarian disaster when we allow the Jewish state to use this as justification to treat others in the same manner as the Nazi's treated the Jews of Europe. The only thing they haven't done is set up death camps.

Plenty of Palestinians have been beaten, robbed, displaced, humiliated and imprisoned for defending what in any other country would be their lawful rights.

I totally agree with your last paragraph, the free people of the world have a lot to learn. Too often we ally ourselves with those who are "the enemies of our enemies" rather than our "friends", and then when we have helped them through their problems they turn on us, or turn out to be little better than those whom we helped them replace.

my quote has been misinterpreted by you. I meant that they lived there, in that land right through the 2000 year or so period. They had not all left, despite many holocausts. Their land was taken by continual conquest. Your comparison of what happens in Israel with the Nazis 1930-45 in odious in the extreme, and must mean that you have no understanding of The Holocaust whatsoever.

Your understanding of the Israel question is a simplification. Like it or not , the Jews have no option but to defend themselves or go under. Currently, their enemies do not want peace, they have spurned it continually. They wish only to deprive the Israelis of their rightful homeland, small as it is. If all the claims to return of land were honoured surely there would not be enough land in Israel to satisfy the demand. Peace is there for the taking, Israelis always re-act. Their enemies only have to stop firing, but as you so forcefully put it, why should they.

My family soldiers served in that land for some years in the 1930's and populations of both Jews and Arabs were already in place. The attempt from day 1 to wipe out the Jews has back fired. The facism is on the Arab side.

I fail to pick up on your last paragraph, but I note that you ignored my little question regarding Europeans in Australia.

population of Jerusalem in the late19thc/early 20thc.

Mohammedans - some 3500
Christians some 4000
Jews some 3500

And the Golden Dome on the Rock is planted firmly over a sacred Jewish temple/synagogue - a deliberate sign of conquest and domination. When the Arabs controlled Jerusalem pre 1967 Jews were not allowed access at all. Nor did they have access to the Suez canal.

The Israel you see today was a barren plot before 1936. Give your heritage a break.
Can i ask if you have been to see it ? Have you stood at the Western Wall?

I'm weakening now, but I find the propoganda levelled against Israel and USA is so cliched, so unrelenting, so fashionable, and so successful that I get fed up pointing out to people this message. OK go on and sacrifice the Jews. Who cares. That'll be the end of the problem. Wrong. that'll be the start of the problems. Iraq. iran. Lebanon. Saudi. Indonesia Algeria. turkey........ shall I go on??

this is boring the pants off people. I really must insist on stopping on this thread.
Thank you, friend.

PS of course i will uphold the courtesy of responding to the Australian question if you wish me to.

As much as I would like to stay out of this mainly because I tend to agree with Seno on this one but I have one one question for Del.
What do you mean by this comment:

The Israel you see today was a barren plot before 1936. Give your heritage a break.

Borders and nationalism in regions as old and convoluted as Europe, Afrika, Asia and the Middle East are the scourge of the millenium. People are migratory by nature and the artificial imposition of borders disallows the biological drive to balance populations according to the demands of environment. Turning back the clock is impossible and unfortunately human beings are also destructive hateful little shits that lack the capacity to live and let live.

NUKE EM IF THEY CANT LEARN TO CO-EXIST. This will thin the heard of those unable to live peaceably and free up more resources for the rest of us.

And before you respond, yes- I am serious and no- I don't give a rat's arse about what anyone thinks of this idea. Our gene pool has been polluted and degraded for centuries, it is in need of some housekeeping and since we have removed the natural forces we must implement artificial ones with criteria for removal from the species and I think warmongering mentalities is a good place to start.