WW11 book- my training sergeant at Maryhill Barracks in 1953 was one of those left behind and became a shot-up prisoner. Martin Jamieson MM.


http://www.express.co.uk/features/vi...ors-of-Dunkirk

Wow, that was an interesting stories. I didn't know that the Germans could have done something terrible to the allies soldiers.

Well Hitler issued a death order on any Royal Marine captured. When the Cockleshell raiders hit the French port sinking many ships all those captured were executed

Originally Posted by Fox

Wow, that was an interesting stories. I didn't know that the Germans could have done something terrible to the allies soldiers.

While I am not going to defend Germany on this one I think it also fair to point out that the The Military History Research Office in Germany estimates that around 56000 German POWs died in Allied hands during WW2 as well.

Also if you are into some rather "sensational" information on the subject you could try reading work by James Bacque called Other Losses where claims claims that somewhere between 500,000 and 1.7 million German POWs died in the hands of the Western Allies.

I also think it worth noting that these figures are hotly contested.

Originally Posted by MontyB

While I am not going to defend Germany on this one I think it also fair to point out that the The Military History Research Office in Germany estimates that around 56000 German POWs died in Allied hands during WW2 as well.

Also if you are into some rather "sensational" information on the subject you could try reading work by James Bacque called Other Losses where claims claims that somewhere between 500,000 and 1.7 million German POWs died in the hands of the Western Allies.

I also think it worth noting that these figures are hotly contested.

Okay, I'm learning something new on this one...

I think my question would be stupid but I'm curious. Does the Allies really ignored the Geneva Convention at that time?

Well Hitler issued a death order on any Royal Marine captured. When the Cockleshell raiders hit the French port sinking many ships all those captured were executed

That's interesting....

Originally Posted by Fox

Okay, I'm learning something new on this one...

I think my question would be stupid but I'm curious. Does the Allies really ignored the Geneva Convention at that time?

To be honest I don't know this James Bacque character seems to have issues with Eisenhower more than anything else and having read his book I am not sure his numbers are accurate especially since the Germans themselves put the number at less than 1% of his claimed 1.7 million.

But I think it important to look at both sides of this argument and realise that while Germany carried out some abominable acts during WW2 the Allies were not entirely squeaky clean either.

Incidentally during the battle of Crete there was an instance of German mountain troops being killed stopping a Luftwaffe attack on surrendering Allied troops and numerous cases of severely wounded POWs surviving because of quick action by German troops in getting them flown back to Athens for treatment.
(Pages 223-226 of Crete - The battlle and the Resistance by Antony Beevor).

Monty B - Of course the points you make in your last 2 posts are valid questions to be raised.

The only question I have is - do you have the breakdown of the figures for 'The Allies' as quoted?

I ask this because obviously it must be important to seperate Russia from the other allies in this respect owing to their particular circumstances.

Perhaps you have this figure?

BTW - I posted the book details on the basis of it seeming to be an interesting one - not for political issues.
For example - my training sergeant Jamieson MM was in fact one of those left behing in rear-guard action and was severely injured but survived the war as a prisoner of the Germans, and except for a leg held together with 15 screws was able to carry soldiering as a trainer. His mind may well have been another matter; unfortunately he never spoke of it. But obviously he must have had some sort of medical treatment etc.

On the other hand, I well remember German and Italian prisoners here, and they seemed OK with their lot, in fact the Italians made a fuss of us kids.
Some Germans stayed after the war, like the great Bert Trautman who played in goal for Manchester City for many years and once played through a game with a broken neck.

I also remember the Italian shopkeepers returning after the hostilities, great favourites with the kids but now a little sombre.

I spent time in Hamburg around 1950, when it was still suffering from the devastation of war. Iremember using the early morning ferries with Irish ex -prisoners of war making it clear what they thought of Germany at that time. As a kid, and not understanding the implications, I felt sympathy for those uncomfortable and embarrassed German travellers.

Sorry to go a bit off-topic, just a few experiences of historical attitudes as seen.

As for the book, I hope it might prove of some interest .

Originally Posted by MontyB

While I am not going to defend Germany on this one I think it also fair to point out that the The Military History Research Office in Germany estimates that around 56000 German POWs died in Allied hands during WW2 as well.

Also if you are into some rather "sensational" information on the subject you could try reading work by James Bacque called Other Losses where claims claims that somewhere between 500,000 and 1.7 million German POWs died in the hands of the Western Allies.

I also think it worth noting that these figures are hotly contested.

MontyB What do you mean, Western allied or all? 56 000 sounds low for those POW who died on the Eastern front alone. How can we distinguish between those who were executed from those who died of battle injuries whilst in captivity?

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Monty B - Of course the points you make in your last 2 posts are valid questions to be raised.

The only question I have is - do you have the breakdown of the figures for 'The Allies' as quoted?

I ask this because obviously it must be important to seperate Russia from the other allies in this respect owing to their particular circumstances.

Perhaps you have this figure?

Well according to the Russians the official figures were:
German POWs Taken: 2,388,000
German POWs Died in Captivity: 356,000
German Allies Captured (Hungarians, Romanians, etc.): 1,097,000
German Allies Died in Captivity: 162,000
Japanese POWs Taken: 600,000
Japanese POWs Died in Captivity: 61,855

These figures are quoted in the book Russia's War by Richard Overy

There are other Estimates putting the fatality rate at closer to 35% but how accurate that is I don't know as it is hard to separate actual figures and speculation/revisionism.

BTW - I posted the book details on the basis of it seeming to be an interesting one - not for political issues.
For example - my training sergeant Jamieson MM was in fact one of those left behing in rear-guard action and was severely injured but survived the war as a prisoner of the Germans, and except for a leg held together with 15 screws was able to carry soldiering as a trainer. His mind may well have been another matter; unfortunately he never spoke of it. But obviously he must have had some sort of medical treatment etc.

On the other hand, I well remember German and Italian prisoners here, and they seemed OK with their lot, in fact the Italians made a fuss of us kids.
Some Germans stayed after the war, like the great Bert Trautman who played in goal for Manchester City for many years and once played through a game with a broken neck.

I also remember the Italian shopkeepers returning after the hostilities, great favourites with the kids but now a little sombre.

I spent time in Hamburg around 1950, when it was still suffering from the devastation of war. Iremember using the early morning ferries with Irish ex -prisoners of war making it clear what they thought of Germany at that time. As a kid, and not understanding the implications, I felt sympathy for those uncomfortable and embarrassed German travellers.

Sorry to go a bit off-topic, just a few experiences of historical attitudes as seen.

As for the book, I hope it might prove of some interest .

I am not disputing anything in the book you have quoted I am simply pointing out that there are two sides to every story.

Originally Posted by perseus

MontyB What do you mean, Western allied or all? 56 000 sounds low for those POW who died on the Eastern front alone. How can we distinguish between those who were executed from those who died of battle injuries whilst in captivity?

The figure of 56,000 is attributed solely to the western Allies (Britain, France, USA etc.) and do not include Russia. I deliberately left Russian numbers out of the mix as the level of treatment handed out on the Eastern Front toward POWs was vastly different to that of the war in the west.

As for distinguishing the cause of death I really do not know, the figures only indicate those that died while in captivity so I am assuming that these are POW's that were registered with the Red Cross and subsequently died.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I am not disputing anything in the book you have quoted I am simply pointing out that there are two sides to every story.

Thanks for the figures.

OK, but that is a generalisation you know; and this particular story relates to specifics, does it not. Dunkirk.

However, I am happy just to pass on the information re the book.. No politics intended. I never criticize or praise a book I have not read.