Originally Posted by MontyB

I dont entirely agree, I think all nations within Europe will continue to put theirs first which is only natural it is also why I believe that any European parliament will only ever be for coordinating the european states and not ruling them.

Yes this is true but the French have it bad.
During the Cold War, EVERYONE needed to be on board to stop a Soviet Invasion. Yet the French still toyed around and thought of their personal pride in having their military completely independent, even at the risk of having NATO lose the war.
It's this level of selfishness which makes people skeptical.
Not to mention their extremely poor record of doing things right when the kitchen got hot.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I dont think it matters which way Britain goes the future of European "strength" both economically and militarily will come from Germany, Russia and France.

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. You're not saying that Britain, if it goes down the path of European integration, won't be one of the major sources of its strength? I'm sure you're aware that Britain is the 4th strongest economy in the world so I am guessing that I've just misunderstood you. Also, why do you mention Russia when; a) it's not even in the EU and is unlikely to be so at this time and b) it has massive problems with its own military and especially industrial infrastructure.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:41 am Post subject:
MontyB wrote:
I dont think it matters which way Britain goes the future of European "strength" both economically and militarily will come from Germany, Russia and France.


I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. You're not saying that Britain, if it goes down the path of European integration, won't be one of the major sources of its strength? I'm sure you're aware that Britain is the 4th strongest economy in the world so I am guessing that I've just misunderstood you. Also, why do you mention Russia when; a) it's not even in the EU and is unlikely to be so at this time and b) it has massive problems with its own military and especially industrial infrastructure.

I am saying that I believe in the long term Britain will go it alone and that a "European" union will encompass Russia.

When NATO wanted to organize itself, it wanted members to be absolute about the defense of Europe. Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, etc etc. were all in. The French however, despite America going in to Vietnam to convince the French to join NATO became a bit of "voluntary" members, meaning that during a time of war, they "might" come to the rescue.

We were part of NATO since the beginning (1949) and until De Gaulle decided to pull us out of it, because he thought that an independent defense policy will not work with our membership in NATO (NATO=US).
Nevertheless we always take part in NATO exercises, and if a war took place against the USSR we would be with NATO. Why did you use "might" ?

I'm sure you're aware that Britain is the 4th strongest economy in the world

but the modernity of a country consists in a lot of parameters : economy of course, quality of infrastructures (railways,motorways, electrical network and production) social level...

We as a nation are very sceptical about further European integration. We also do not want to lose our special relationship with the US, nor have our strong economy comprised by having to abandon Sterling and adopt the Euro.

But one day you'll have to choose between the EU and the US. If the UK dislike the EU, why is it still a member of it ?

Originally Posted by Pierrot

but the modernity of a country consists in a lot of parameters : economy of course, quality of infrastructures (railways,motorways, electrical network and production) social level...

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Surely it goes without saying that Britain, along with France, Germany and most other European countries as well as the US, Japan etc are as modern as any country gets. No?

But one day you'll have to choose between the EU and the US. If the UK dislike the EU, why is it still a member of it ?

We are part of Europe and always have been. It was natural for us to join a European Union to help with trade and other matters. A United States of Europe is a different matter entirely though.

Why should we have to choose between the US and the EU? It's not as if we're talking about taking sides here, are we?

I think a lot of the bad feeling between England and France is due to the fact that a French King invaded Britain a long time ago and deposed our legal King. Then the French Monarchy for centuries afterwards considered the King of England to be a vassal of the King of France. That was one of the main reasons why we were enemies. Things only really changed when Prussia rose up, united the German city-states and conquered France in 1870. We both saw the threat from Germany and we became allies, only because there was someone else we both feared or hated more. True no?

It's that kind of history that will get in the way of closer European integration, at least for now.

Here is an Idea for you all to feast on.

Back when the United States first came to be, the federal government had almost no power. Basically the government was there for foreign relations and military might. The rest of the dirty things that went on were left to each individual state. At the time, the federal government did not even make a national currentcy. That is something Europe has already accomplished

If Europe were to band together as a union, I believe the form of government would mimic that of the US in the late 1700's. Each state would still have its identity while the government dealt with trade and military matters.

OK anit union members, tear apart my argument

You have a point but I think there's too much history, too much mistrust, animosity and rivalry between the European countries for this sort of thing to happen so quickly.
I would think that the states of the US didn't have this sort of problem initially. After all, their histories were just about on page 2 at this time.

Originally Posted by Doody

Here is an Idea for you all to feast on.

Back when the United States first came to be, the federal government had almost no power. Basically the government was there for foreign relations and military might. The rest of the dirty things that went on were left to each individual state. At the time, the federal government did not even make a national currentcy. That is something Europe has already accomplished

If Europe were to band together as a union, I believe the form of government would mimic that of the US in the late 1700's. Each state would still have its identity while the government dealt with trade and military matters.

OK anit union members, tear apart my argument

This is pretty much what I think it will end up like, individual nations are not going to dissolve themselves to form some bland megastate.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Surely it goes without saying that Britain, along with France, Germany and most other European countries as well as the US, Japan etc are as modern as any country gets. No?

I responded to someone here who believe that the modernity of a country consists only in economy. There are other factors.

we became allies, only because there was someone else we both feared or hated more. True no?

True.

But concerning today's Europe I believe that, in order to go further, some countries have to unite themselves and let the others. But I respect the will of countries which do not have the same goal, but they have to respect us too.

Originally Posted by KC72

NO! NO! NO!

I second that!

I will shoot myself in the head before it happens. Britain will not be dragged into this "United States of Europe."

Britain is completely different to the rest of Europe. We once ruled the world, and now everyone is trying to rule us- it ain't gonna happen while I'm still breathing