An uncommon sight in Europe's skies

[pampa14]

I share with you an interesting collection of pictures showing one of the projects launched at the end of World War II by Germany as part of its war effort to try to avoid the increasingly Allied bombing. The big question remains whether this rocket plane had been built in greater quantities and earlier would have changed the final outcome? What do you think? Visit the link below, see photos and give your opinion about it.


http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com.br/2011/01/uma-visao-incomum-nos-ceus-da-europa.html


Best Regards.

 

[George]

Personally I think the only "game changer" would have been if the Me-262 had gone into production early on instead of being delayed by insistence on a jet bomber.

 

[MontyB]

The Me-262 was never going to save Germany even had it come out in 1942, Germanys problems ran far deeper than its inability to get a jet into combat.

In my opinion the massive numbers of design groups and prototypes rolling out of factories were the biggest problem the Luftwaffe had as they diverted attention and resources from the tasks that needed solving mainly updating existing fighters to stay competitive and manufacturing the numbers needed to combat the allies.

 

[JOC]

Of the 400+ and some odd ME-262 that did make it into combat they had a kill ratio of > 4 to 1 over the allies, who were completely outclassed. Had it come out in a year or 2 earlier when sufficient fuel was available for much larger quantities of ME-262's and the allied fighter were not yet so advanced (i.e. P-51 not developed until 44) it would have no dought ruled the skies. Yes the engines needed regular replacement, however Germany was aware of this and made the replacements as needed for the planes that made it into combat. The real issue was when it became available there just wasn't enough fuel for the aircrafts.

 

[MontyB]

Yet had the Me-262 rolled off the production line in 1942 the Gloster Meteor would have entered service as a counter to it within 6 months, the only change would have been to see Jet vs Jet combat in 1943, the Allies would have out produced the Germans and swamped them by 1944 as they did in the piston engine world.

The German problem is that it could neither out produce the Allies nor sufficiently out class the allies to compensate for the lack of production therefore attrition was always going to favour the Allies.

 

[JOC]

Yet had the Me-262 rolled off the production line in 1942 the Gloster Meteor would have entered service as a counter to it within 6 months, the only change would have been to see Jet vs Jet combat in 1943, the Allies would have out produced the Germans and swamped them by 1944 as they did in the piston engine world.

The German problem is that it could neither out produce the Allies nor sufficiently out class the allies to compensate for the lack of production therefore attrition was always going to favour the Allies.

Yet the British Gloster Meteor which was available in production at a similar time frame to that of the ME-262 was not produced in quantity or used in a fighter to fighter combat role. Certainly a fine aircraft for it's time, however it's effectiveness against the ME-262 can only be speculated.

Again as with Germany, Britain was slow to bring the jet to it's potential.

As for outclassing, Germany outclassed the allies in many areas of weaponry from tanks, tank destroyers, machine guns, Anti aircraft guns, missiles, rockets, Sturmgewehr (assault gun) to name a few.

Germanys problem was numerical superiority in men and equipment when taking on the combined forces of the USA, USSR and British Common Wealth.

 

[MontyB]

Yet the British Gloster Meteor which was available in production at a similar time frame to that of the ME-262 was not produced in quantity or used in a fighter to fighter combat role. Certainly a fine aircraft for it's time, however it's effectiveness against the ME-262 can only be speculated.

Again as with Germany, Britain was slow to bring the jet to it's potential.

As for outclassing, Germany outclassed the allies in many areas of weaponry from tanks, tank destroyers, machine guns, Anti aircraft guns, missiles, rockets, Sturmgewehr (assault gun) to name a few.

Germanys problem was numerical superiority in men and equipment when taking on the combined forces of the USA, USSR and British Common Wealth.

Had the Me-262 reached production in 1942 the Allies would have had a jet to match it within 6 months if not sooner and they would have moved mountains to regain air superiority, the history of fighter development exhibited this tit for tat evolution from the beginning of air combat.

Even if the Me-262 gave Germany a 5 to 1 kill ratio it still would not have been enough as allied production of fighters was well beyond Germany's ability to build and replace its own fighter fleet.

For Example:
1943 Allies produced approximately 147,000 Aircraft to Germany's 24,000.
1944 Allies 163,000 Germany 40,000
1945 Allies 79,000 Germany 7500.

In terms of fighters Allies 164,000 vs 57,000.

Source:** Mark Harrison, The economics of World War II: six great powers in international comparison**

It was Stalin that said quantity has a quality of its own and Germany learned exactly how accurate that comment was, Germany produced probably the most technicologically advanced weapons on the planet for most of the war but the allies produced equipment in of similar quality in massive quantities and won the war.

It is that simple.

As with many wars between similarly armed nations it is logistics that win wars and Germany was incapable of manufacturing, maintaining and shifting enough equipment to even force a stalemate. This issue was further complicated by infighting between branches of the military, the vanity/egos of the nations leaders and the funding and supply of countless groups attempting to produce the next "Wunderwaffe".

 

[BritinBritain]

Had the Me-262 reached production in 1942 the Allies would have had a jet to match it within 6 months if not sooner and they would have moved mountains to regain air superiority, the history of fighter development exhibited this tit for tat evolution from the beginning of air combat.

Even if the Me-262 gave Germany a 5 to 1 kill ratio it still would not have been enough as allied production of fighters was well beyond Germany's ability to build and replace its own fighter fleet.

For Example:
1943 Allies produced approximately 147,000 Aircraft to Germany's 24,000.
1944 Allies 163,000 Germany 40,000
1945 Allies 79,000 Germany 7500.

In terms of fighters Allies 164,000 vs 57,000.

Source:** Mark Harrison, The economics of World War II: six great powers in international comparison**

It was Stalin that said quantity has a quality of its own and Germany learned exactly how accurate that comment was, Germany produced probably the most technicologically advanced weapons on the planet for most of the war but the allies produced equipment in of similar quality in massive quantities and won the war.

It is that simple.

As with many wars between similarly armed nations it is logistics that win wars and Germany was incapable of manufacturing, maintaining and shifting enough equipment to even force a stalemate. This issue was further complicated by infighting between branches of the military, the vanity/egos of the nations leaders and the funding and supply of countless groups attempting to produce the next "Wunderwaffe".

If the Air Ministry had listened to and backed Frank Whittle, the RAF would have had a jet ready for the Battle of Britain and possibly shortening the war.

The engines fitted to the 262 had a life of 25 hours before needing a complete overhaul, they also had a nasty habit of catching fire. The Rolls engines fitted to the Meteor only needed a complete overhaul every 100 hours.

 

[MontyB]

If the Air Ministry had listened to and backed Frank Whittle, the RAF would have had a jet ready for the Battle of Britain and possibly shortening the war.

The engines fitted to the 262 had a life of 25 hours before needing a complete overhaul, the yalso had a nasty habit of catching fire. The Rolls engines fitted to the Meteor only needed a complete overhaul every 100 hours.

Exactly, the Germans through necessity produced some very advanced gear and got it into the field but often it was manufactured with low quality materials and by untrained (in some cases forced) labour.

But in many cases the Germans were not as advanced as history tends to parrot and the fighter war is a good example of this as it is riddled with the tit for tat advances, one model of the Bf-109 would be better than the current generation of Spitfire yet within weeks of it being in action a new model Spitfire would roll off the production line that once again matched or bettered the Bf-109 and this process repeated itself for much of the war.

Jet development was a lost opportunity for both sides as the first turbojet to fly was the Luftwaffes He-178 which flew in 1939 and was then shelved, few people seem to recall that the Meteor was the first production fighter going into production a couple of months before the Me-262 and it was only neccessity that got the Me-262 the title of first jet to see active service as Meteor was tested thoroughly before reaching combat units.

 

[JOC]

Had the Me-262 reached production in 1942 the Allies would have had a jet to match it within 6 months if not sooner and they would have moved mountains to regain air superiority, the history of fighter development exhibited this tit for tat evolution from the beginning of air combat.

Even if the Me-262 gave Germany a 5 to 1 kill ratio it still would not have been enough as allied production of fighters was well beyond Germany's ability to build and replace its own fighter fleet.

For Example:
1943 Allies produced approximately 147,000 Aircraft to Germany's 24,000.
1944 Allies 163,000 Germany 40,000
1945 Allies 79,000 Germany 7500.

In terms of fighters Allies 164,000 vs 57,000.

Source:** Mark Harrison, The economics of World War II: six great powers in international comparison**

It was Stalin that said quantity has a quality of its own and Germany learned exactly how accurate that comment was, Germany produced probably the most technicologically advanced weapons on the planet for most of the war but the allies produced equipment in of similar quality in massive quantities and won the war.

It is that simple.

As with many wars between similarly armed nations it is logistics that win wars and Germany was incapable of manufacturing, maintaining and shifting enough equipment to even force a stalemate. This issue was further complicated by infighting between branches of the military, the vanity/egos of the nations leaders and the funding and supply of countless groups attempting to produce the next "Wunderwaffe".

This is exactly what I said without all the fanfare

 

[MontyB]

This is exactly what I said without all the fanfare

really I thought you said:

Of the 400+ and some odd ME-262 that did make it into combat they had a kill ratio of > 4 to 1 over the allies, who were completely outclassed. Had it come out in a year or 2 earlier when sufficient fuel was available for much larger quantities of ME-262's and the allied fighter were not yet so advanced (i.e. P-51 not developed until 44) it would have no dought ruled the skies. Yes the engines needed regular replacement, however Germany was aware of this and made the replacements as needed for the planes that made it into combat. The real issue was when it became available there just wasn't enough fuel for the aircrafts.

Which is nothing like what I posted and exactly what I am arguing against, the respite from allied air superiority that the Me-262 could have offered even in 1942 could have been measured in weeks and probably counted on one hand.

 

[JOC]

Even if the Me-262 gave Germany a 5 to 1 kill ratio it still would not have been enough as allied production of fighters was well beyond Germany's ability to build and replace its own fighter fleet.

For Example:
1943 Allies produced approximately 147,000 Aircraft to Germany's 24,000.
1944 Allies 163,000 Germany 40,000
1945 Allies 79,000 Germany 7500.

In terms of fighters Allies 164,000 vs 57,000.

Source:** Mark Harrison, The economics of World War II: six great powers in international comparison**

It was Stalin that said quantity has a quality of its own and Germany learned exactly how accurate that comment was, Germany produced probably the most technicologically advanced weapons on the planet for most of the war but the allies produced equipment in of similar quality in massive quantities and won the war.

It is that simple.

As with many wars between similarly armed nations it is logistics that win wars and Germany was incapable of manufacturing, maintaining and shifting enough equipment to even force a stalemate. This issue was further complicated by infighting between branches of the military, the vanity/egos of the nations leaders and the funding and supply of countless groups attempting to produce the next "Wunderwaffe".

Much to do about nothing. In fewer words you said Germany was defeated by numerical superiority look at my last statement on post #6

 

[JOC]

After the end of the war, the Me 262 and other advanced German technologies were quickly swept up by the Americans (as part of the USAAF's Operation Lusty), British, and Soviets. Many Me 262s were found in readily repairable condition and were confiscated. Both the Soviets and Americans desired the technology to serve as a basis for their own jet fighters.

During testing, the Me 262 was found to have advantages over the early models of the Gloster Meteor. It was faster, had better cockpit visibility to the sides and rear (mostly due to the canopy frame and the discoloration caused by the plastics used in the Meteor's construction), and was a superior gun platform, as the early Meteors had a tendency to snake at high speed and exhibited "weak" aileron response. The Me 262 did have a shorter combat range than the Meteor.

The USAAF compared the P-80 P-80 and Me 262 concluding, "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (900 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter

Just for curiosity's sake
Source Wikipedia

 

[MontyB]

Your point is what, no one is arguing that it wasnt a leading edge aircraft in terms of technology, what we are arguing is that it would never have been enough to alter the outcome of the war, by anyones standards the P-80 was a piece of crap the best thing you could say about it was that it did fly, mostly into the ground but at least it did get off the ground far enough to kill its test pilots on impact.

 

[JOC]

Your point is what.

As stated curiosities sake

 

[George]

really I thought you said:



Which is nothing like what I posted and exactly what I am arguing against, the respite from allied air superiority that the Me-262 could have offered even in 1942 could have been measured in weeks and probably counted on one hand.

And yet they failed to get a jet into combat after the 262 went operational.....

 

[MontyB]

The Meteor was in production before the Me-262 and it was in the process of being deployed when the war ended, the prime reason it was never rushed into service was that it was not necessary as the allies were already combating the Me-262 well enough with conventional fighters.

Basically the British unlike the Germans did not need to risk the lives of their pilots in untried combat aircraft.

The sad thing is that we are now two pages into a thread on the Bachem Ba 349 Natter and not one person has even mentioned it, for some reason we are fixated with the Me-262.

 

[JOC]

The Meteor was in production before the Me-262 and it was in the process of being deployed when the war ended, the prime reason it was never rushed into service was that it was not necessary as the allies were already combating the Me-262 well enough with conventional fighters.

Basically the British unlike the Germans did not need to risk the lives of their pilots in untried combat aircraft.

The sad thing is that we are now two pages into a thread on the Bachem Ba 349 Natter and not one person has even mentioned it, for some reason we are fixated with the Me-262.

The Meteor only beat the ME-262 into production by several months and when later tested was proven not to be as proficient a fighter as was the ME-262. My sources claim the ME-262’s engines needed changing every 50 hours, Brit says 25 hours. Either way the engine did have a longevity issue. The Meteor engines lasted ~ 100 hours. So even if it were rushed into combat it may have fallen short when combating the ME-262?

The reason the allies could rest on their laurels was that only a relatively small number of ME-262 made it into aerial combat. This was due to a lack of fuel and secondly due to a lack of sufficiently long runways that weren’t bombed. This small number of Me-262 that did make it into combat achieved a kill ratio of (4 or 5) to 1 over allied planes. However with countless thousands of P-51’s, Mosquito and other conventional fighter aircraft pitted against the small number of ME-262’s they could never hope to tip the balance at this late stage in the war.

The Bachem Ba 349 Natter is a surface to air rocket powered interceptor more of a missile. Not really relevant to the discussion of WW2 jet aircraft. However it may make for another interesting WW2 tread.

 

[MontyB]

The Bachem Ba 349 Natter is a surface to air rocket powered interceptor more of a missile. Not really relevant to the discussion of WW2 jet aircraft. However it may make for another interesting WW2 tread.

Dude did you take a look at the starting post for this thread it takes you to a page about the Natter, we all just got side tracked into another Me-262 thread.

So this was mean't to be the "interesting" thread on the Natter.