Originally Posted by staurofilakes

The terrorist that bombed the trains on 11-M(The aniversary is today) were coming from Morocco. And Spain has border lines with Morocco, remember that Spain has two cities in north Africa(Ceuta y melilla). Border lines are not irrelevant again.

exactly. that is why this atack took place in spain. all south european countries are in greater danger than rest of europe.
few members of this terrorist group were bosnian muslims. let me just remind you that bosnian muslims were suported by us, and europe during the balkan wars, in the 90s. it is like boomerang.

Originally Posted by Charge_7

"The terrorist that bombed the trains on 11-M(The aniversary is today) were coming from Morocco. And Spain has border lines with Morocco"

"Border lines are not irrelevant again."

You contradicted your own statement.

i would like you to explain me where is the contradiction. You said that having a fronteir with islamic countries is irrelevant concerning to terrorist attacks. I gived you a couple of examples: Israel had to make a wall to avoid terrorist coming into his territory and the spanish example. You are constantly contradicting your self, and if you do not belive it check you previous post.

You also said that Turkey was not gonna have a powerful position in EU Parlament; do you think that being the second most influential(concerning to the number of representant in the parlament) country in europe is not important??

You contradicted yourself by saying Spain _has_ a border and then saying that the terrorists got in _by_ that border. This contradicts your belief that a border would make you all that much safer.

Also, I did _not_ say Turkey wouldn't be influential. I _did_ say it wouldn't be the _most_ influential as you said it would be. Second most by itself yes, but Germany would always have France to more than counter anything that Turkey might hold in opposition.

You people are thinking of borders in the very local sense and I am thinking of them in the much broader sense. Small borders such as the wall in Israel have a use today but are only stop gaps. I'm sure the Israelis know full well it only slows attacks it doesn't prevent them as oh so many news stories have shown us.

The point I am trying to make to you is that borders are no guarantee of safety from attack. Lessen them to an extent - sure, but to believe that having borders is somehow going to wrap you in a nice cozy blanket is living in a fool's paradise. I seriously think that by allowing Turkey into the EU you make yourselves safer in the long run. How much better is it to have a group of people as a partner than to exclude them? How much more likely are they to identify themselves with your way of life if you include them in it? Turkey could be the start of pacifying the whole Middle East in the long run. I'm very surprised those of you who decry US actions with your "liberal" views toss those ideas out the window when they are laid at your doorstep.

border lines are not a guarantee, but they help.
About the terrorist that bombed the trains on 11-M...They did not come from Morocco and put the bombs, they were already inside with legal pasports. They were conected with Morocco secret services, so they were full equiped...The attacks were a conspiracy to remove aznar from the goverment and put a weak ass**le that could not defend spanish interes in norther africa

I doubt that EU can work with the entrance of Turkey. With 25 countries it's already the chaos : impossible to take any important decision. As FlyingFrog said, "Germany and France should leave EU, and make up an Alliance of Germany and France, some other countries may join if they like, like Holland, Belgium, Austria, etc."
Today Europe is only a "widen out" machine. That's not my conception : Europe must be a international politic power, and not only an economic one.

Well, Europe is not just the countries you mentioned....You have to remember that the first idea of a unite Europe was the Roman Empire...and you forgot Italy....In the developing of the concept of Europe many countries have helped. Concerning my country, probably if my ancestors wouldn´t have foght against the arabs for 750 years today the south of France or may be all of it would be praying in Meca´s direction.

I tell about today's Europe. Some countries think Europe must be an integrated common market and do never accept to go further (like UK for example); other countries prefer building a stronger Europe with a real politic power : these must be able to leave EU and build a real other one.

Hey don't forget that Charles Martel stopped the arabs at Poitiers in 732

"Hey don't forget that Charles Martel stopped the arabs at Poitiers in 732"

I was wondering when somebody was going to remind him about the French.

Originally Posted by Charge_7

"Hey don't forget that Charles Martel stopped the arabs at Poitiers in 732"

I was wondering when somebody was going to remind him about the French.

actualy, before 732 they were stopped at least two times by bysantines, 678 and ... I forgot.

The Byzantine Empire did include Greece at one point in its existence, so yeah, they defended Europe too.