Yes, welcome, Zyca! I think you're like the first Taiwanese on the forum.

How come? Should be the second, the Thread Starter was the First

cool, mind to show us some pics of taiwan?

Hey, nice to meet everyone! I recently got back from Taiwan (like 3 weeks ago) and had to endure the politics in Taiwan daily when I was there. People are extremely divided in Taiwan. I hope to learn more from different perspectives in this forum and hopefully have more people understand what the Taiwanese are thinking

Originally Posted by FlyingFrog

Zyca, do you support CSB's independence?

Welcome on board

Thank you! Nice to meet you!

Pardon my ignorance, what is CSB?

Originally Posted by Chocobo_Blitzer

Yes, welcome, Zyca! I think you're like the first Taiwanese on the forum.

I might be the first Taiwanese to consistenly check this forum from now on Nice to meet you!

Originally Posted by NYC88mm

cool, mind to show us some pics of taiwan?

Unfortunately I have mostly family photos I'll remember to take more photos of places when I go back again. I could find some photos online though from Taiwan news sites if you are interested.

Originally Posted by Zyca

Ouch.

1. Yes, it's not the sole reason to declare TI. But remember, this is not about those people anymore, it's about the people who currently live on the island. TI cannot be decided purely by where the people came from or originated. Why are more and more people pro-TI? Ever wondered why? Is it becuase we are all brainwashed? Maybe. Then why are you so stuck on reunification? Do you truly care? Have you been inconveniented by not having Taiwan has part of your land? Besides visiting it, of course.

2. The undeniable fact is that people in Taiwan came from many places, mainland China being a big place among others. No one in Taiwan will deny this. My grandfather in fact was from Hunan. You develop deep ties with the place you are most familiar to you though, not some big piece of land where we were taught to call our mother country when you don't even know what the streets there look like. And especially not when they threaten to rip you apart on a regular basis.

3. Civil development? Go visit Taiwan first before you claim that. Locate a government building built at that age. Then go to China, and let me know how they resemble, or if you even find one in Taiwan. Civil development did not truly start until, sadly, the Japanese got here. Did Ming teach the kids in Taiwan? Built schools?

4. This goes to show a lack of understanding. Taiwanese NEVER treated the Dutch, the Manchu, the Japanese, and even the KMT government as their governors. They are occupiers and invaders, and the Taiwanese people were just being passed around like a piece of meat among the occupiers. The fact that Taiwan changed hands from one occupier to another does not mean that the Taiwanese acknowledged either.

5. How do you know? Do you know what happened in 1947 when KMT had control of Taiwan? Do you know how many battles the Japanese had to fight with the native Taiwanese? The Dutch? Who's to say that Taiwanese people won't continue the fight the invaders? Taiwanese people are not 'not supposed to be separated from China', it's that 'Chinese people are not supposed to let Taiwan be separated from China'. Why? List a less sugar-coated reason why China wants Taiwan. We are brothers? We are a family? I don't see my sister holding a knife in my face if I wanted to move out.

Err, nobody betrayed you, wake up. We just want a land of our own. Where we are free to travel the world and have rights in the global community, where we don't have to fear some 300 missiles on our asses daily, where we can decide what we want to do, and go where we want to go. Give us a big reason to go back to our big brother. Where was the help when SARS broke out? Why did the Chinese government insisted that all aids be routed through the Chinese Red Cross in 921 earthquake? What are you doing with the missiles aiming at us? I'll tell you what, treat us better, and the people will overthrow the government ourselves and welcome you. Until you can do more for us than what we can do for ourselves, don't say we betrayed you.

But then, you are stronger, you are bigger, and you are much more powerful. But you can't have a pie and eat it, you will be invading us. We are prepared, but don't say we are rightfully yours. Just claim it with force and admit that you are bullying us, why not? You got the fist.

1. Believe it is becoz "Outer province group" (Wai sheng ren) and "Inner province group" (Nei Sheng Ren) concept. At first when KMT get in to Taian and said many things bad about China mainland , the local Taiawanese already had a concept that "We r separated from Mainland China" and "we r different to nationality with Chinese". This 2 concept was later strangthen by the "Inner province group" by declaring that both we are 2 different races and wanted independence. However, Taiwan did not legally been proven as a Independent country by any treaty or agreement in the recent 60 years. That's why we holding strongly on Reunification.

2. First, good for u to agree it that u r same etnic. As I had say for many times. Same etnic and speaking group is one of the criteria I think Taiwan is not independent. And also, be rasional, why China warned Taiwan? The reason is becoz they did not want Taiwan to do something that's unlawful and disgrace, that's why he warn. So how can u say they just want to GET RIP OF? Even more, u should have know more than I, Taiwan political system is a totally b******t. No further explain coz u know

3. Japanese r definately ******* of the millenium. They came and burned all the Taiwanese ancestor's worship board and did a "Ancestor changing" ceremony, turn their ancestor to Japanese and since then they make Taiwanese full with Japanese culture. They also caught(Actually they lied to them) some Taiawanese women to be comfort girls at the occupation area. U wanna talk Japanese? arse! And, I believe that China did give Taiwan developement, Zheng Cheng Gong din come and develope Taiwan? After Ch'ng Dynasty got Taiwan back they din develope Taiwan? Don't lie to me plz.

4. Occupiers, huh! What a disgrace. For I said u have been brainwash by many lying fact. Taiwan is not a colony of China as state in the history. It's a proper territory. U want to know what is real colony? Come over to South East Asia plz.

5. I raftly know what happen it 1945-1949. After gotting Taiwan back, KMT soldiers went in to Taiwan and a few men among the thousands took gun and shoot the civilians, for some reason, maye accidentally. And this contribute to "Racial" conflict between the local Taiwanese with Mainlanders. However, it was later controled well by KMT and KMT also built Chinese schools and develope Taiwan, under a part of China. U cannot deny so.

Let's go trough the recent history. IN year 1943 there was a Cairo Declration, where it stated that after the WW II end, Manchuria, Northeast China, Taiwan and etc territory will be giving back to China from Japanese hands. In year 1945, There was a Postam (Bo-Si-Tan) Agreement in No.8, Stated that all the statement in Cairo Declaration 1943 must be fullfilled. So Taiwan is given back to China. Also in one time American President (Roswell/Truman forgotten) said to the world officially that Taiwan is GIVEN BACK TO CHINA. But the IT fellas translated this saying wrongly. In year 1951, there was a Los Angelas(Was it los angelas? Chinese translation was Old-Gold Mountain) Agreement state that Japanese officially give up authority over Taiwan, this agreement was signed by Japanese and USA only, but in the statement they didn't said they given to who! But this agreement has to be signed by Chinese! But the problem was during that time China had been communist land, so USA forced Japanese to signed this agreement with Chiang Khai Shik(In the land of Republic of China) in 1952. (The Japanese din want to do so, becoz they think they should sign this agreement with Beijing , Not Taiwan, but USA still forced them to do so)

In year 1978, China mainland and Japanese signed an agreement, said that Japanese will give all lost territory to China back, but they did not say Taiwan, for Taiwan has been given in year 1951. And in this agreement it also said that Japanese will respect the China Tong-yi (Tong-yi......something like reunification, well I wrote this to cyca, so u know what I am saying).

I hate the Taiwanese education minister tried to skip the Cairo declaration 1943 and Postam declration 1945 in the new history text book. But they mentioned Los Angelos agreement 1951 very heavily. WHY? Becoz they want TI! Illegally!

Where is Taiwan when Asians r appealing to look properly at the denial of Japanese over history for they also victims?Still Lee Deng Hui everyday barking like dog saying the Japanese r the best.U Taiwanese cannot handle 921 and SARs, plz don't come and find China, China were also facing many problems in the mainland. Even China did wanted to help, what will the Taiwan government do about it? Remember Taiwan r richer than China. Many people in China also have problems and u want to wate China's money and then still claim IT? Xiang De Mei(In ur dreams)!

Originally Posted by Ezechiel

1. Believe it is becoz "Outer province group" (Wai sheng ren) and "Inner province group" (Nei Sheng Ren) concept. At first when KMT get in to Taian and said many things bad about China mainland , the local Taiawanese already had a concept that "We r separated from Mainland China" and "we r different to nationality with Chinese". This 2 concept was later strangthen by the "Inner province group" by declaring that both we are 2 different races and wanted independence. However, Taiwan did not legally been proven as a Independent country by any treaty or agreement in the recent 60 years. That's why we holding strongly on Reunification.

2. First, good for u to agree it that u r same etnic. As I had say for many times. Same etnic and speaking group is one of the criteria I think Taiwan is not independent. And also, be rasional, why China warned Taiwan? The reason is becoz they did not want Taiwan to do something that's unlawful and disgrace, that's why he warn. So how can u say they just want to GET RIP OF? Even more, u should have know more than I, Taiwan political system is a totally bullsh*t. No further explain coz u know

3. Japanese r definately ******* of the millenium. They came and burned all the Taiwanese ancestor's worship board and did a "Ancestor changing" ceremony, turn their ancestor to Japanese and since then they make Taiwanese full with Japanese culture. They also caught(Actually they lied to them) some Taiawanese women to be comfort girls at the occupation area. U wanna talk Japanese? arse! And, I believe that China did give Taiwan developement, Zheng Cheng Gong din come and develope Taiwan? After Ch'ng Dynasty got Taiwan back they din develope Taiwan? Don't lie to me plz.

4. Occupiers, huh! What a disgrace. For I said u have been brainwash by many lying fact. Taiwan is not a colony of China as state in the history. It's a proper territory. U want to know what is real colony? Come over to South East Asia plz.

5. I raftly know what happen it 1945-1949. After gotting Taiwan back, KMT soldiers went in to Taiwan and a few men among the thousands took gun and shoot the civilians, for some reason, maye accidentally. And this contribute to "Racial" conflict between the local Taiwanese with Mainlanders. However, it was later controled well by KMT and KMT also built Chinese schools and develope Taiwan, under a part of China. U cannot deny so.

Let's go trough the recent history. IN year 1943 there was a Cairo Declration, where it stated that after the WW II end, Manchuria, Northeast China, Taiwan and etc territory will be giving back to China from Japanese hands. In year 1945, There was a Postam (Bo-Si-Tan) Agreement in No.8, Stated that all the statement in Cairo Declaration 1943 must be fullfilled. So Taiwan is given back to China. Also in one time American President (Roswell/Truman forgotten) said to the world officially that Taiwan is GIVEN BACK TO CHINA. But the IT fellas translated this saying wrongly. In year 1951, there was a Los Angelas(Was it los angelas? Chinese translation was Old-Gold Mountain) Agreement state that Japanese officially give up authority over Taiwan, this agreement was signed by Japanese and USA only, but in the statement they didn't said they given to who! But this agreement has to be signed by Chinese! But the problem was during that time China had been communist land, so USA forced Japanese to signed this agreement with Chiang Khai Shik(In the land of Republic of China) in 1952. (The Japanese din want to do so, becoz they think they should sign this agreement with Beijing , Not Taiwan, but USA still forced them to do so)

In year 1978, China mainland and Japanese signed an agreement, said that Japanese will give all lost territory to China back, but they did not say Taiwan, for Taiwan has been given in year 1951. And in this agreement it also said that Japanese will respect the China Tong-yi (Tong-yi......something like reunification, well I wrote this to cyca, so u know what I am saying).

I hate the Taiwanese education minister tried to skip the Cairo declaration 1943 and Postam declration 1945 in the new history text book. But they mentioned Los Angelos agreement 1951 very heavily. WHY? Becoz they want TI! Illegally!

Where is Taiwan when Asians r appealing to look properly at the denial of Japanese over history for they also victims?Still Lee Deng Hui everyday barking like dog saying the Japanese r the best.U Taiwanese cannot handle 921 and SARs, plz don't come and find China, China were also facing many problems in the mainland. Even China did wanted to help, what will the Taiwan government do about it? Remember Taiwan r richer than China. Many people in China also have problems and u want to wate China's money and then still claim IT? Xiang De Mei(In ur dreams)!

First, I'll make the clear distinction that when I say native Taiwanese, I mean the people who already lived in Taiwan prior to KMT's retreat from China, which flooded Taiwan with the Wai sheng ren later.

1. Believe it or not, native Taiwanese people did not need KMT's words to know that they are different from the Chinese. KMT actually came in acting exactly like "occupiers", calling the local Taiwanese "Japanese slaves" or "slave people". Strip them of land, belongings, and forbade them from participating in politics. You should know that when the KMT came, native Taiwanese thought of them as saviors, to free them from the Japanese and to finally be treated equally and with respect. But in contrast, the corruption and the lack of respect only made them look worse. Native Taiwanese needed not to be taught that Chinese are different, they saw it with their own eyes. Can you understand at least WHY the native Taiwanese want to have a country of their own? Put aside your colored glass that Taiwan is part of China, at least know why before you flame the 'TI fellas'. TI is not a product of brainwashing, TI is a direction more and more Taiwanese want to take. And the fact that Taiwan was not legally recognized as a country = China owns Taiwan? If China was not so powerful, no one would even blink an eye if TI is declared now. Face it, it's the power you enjoy, not the legitimacy you claim so that Taiwan cannot become independent.

2. My grandfather was only half the story, my mother is from the native Taiwanese side. I don't consider myself pure Chinese but a 'mix'. Believing the same religion, speaking the same language, eating the same primary food, etc. show what influenced your culture. It does not, however, gives you the right to anyone else's land. Taiwanese want to do something 'unlawful' and 'disgrace'? We view Chinese' bullying action 'unreasonable' and 'barbaric'! Seriously, what will happen once China invades Taiwan and occupies it later? View the people on the island as traitors and less-pure? Disrespect the people for voicing their opinions that they want to be their own master?

3. What the Japanese did differed little from what the KMT did, and will probably differ little from what the PRC will do when they invade and occupy Taiwan. Are they going to let the native Taiwanese believe that they came very close to having their own country? Not a chance in hell, they will burn and wipe out the trace. 1662, Zheng Ch'eng-kung loyalists came and fought the Dutch, took control of Taiwan, to do what? Do you know? History repeats itself, he (actually his son) did what the KMT did when it was fighting PRC, he used the resources on the island, thinking that he can reconquer China and re-establish Ming over Manchu. By looking at history, China will come and conquer the small island just like what Manchu did to Zheng. You want to talk developments? Come to Taiwan, pay a visit, look around and see for yourself. I won't lie but I don't pretend to know it all, seeing is believing.

4. Disgrace, what a strong word. Anything opposing your "great China" idea is a disgrace. Mongolia was probably a disgrace, Tibet is probably a disgrace too. Considering PRC has questionable rights to Taiwan, I wouldn't call native Taiwanese or myself calling them "occupiers" when they invade a disgrace. Hey, Taiwan has been a colony before, the Dutch merchants made Taiwan attractive to Japanese and Chinese alike, but the goal? Benefit from the island. 1662 Zheng and his loyalists took Taiwan, the goal? Re-conquer the mainland. 1895-1902 Japanese took Taiwan, the goal? Colonizing at first, turning everyone into Japanese later. 1945 KMT took Taiwan, the goal? Sack the resources to support KMT's forces in mainland to fight PRC. Why are they not occupiers? Now we are in 2004, PRC wanting to take Taiwan, the goal? What is it? Save the people? Help out developments in Taiwan? Re-unite the brothers and sisters whom you don't even know what they are like? Brainwashed? Who's brainwashed? Taiwanese people wanting TI, the goal? To be a disgrace? To annoy China? To look for trouble? No, we just want a land of our own, have our policies created by our people, have our leaders selected by popularity. What is so hard to understand?

5. Let me re-state your belief: KMT came over, had an "accident" shooting a civilian, which created "racial" uprising, and was later controlled "well". Hmm, where to begin. 228 incident, heard of it? I did an extensive research on it, it will take too long to describe everything. We can discuss this in another thread if you are interested. Let me just simply counter by saying no, the whole thing was triggered by an accident, but a racial uprising cannot be turned on by a mere accident. And no, it was not controlled well at all. KMT briefly lost the control of the island, and later a massacre took place similar to Nanking massacre done by the Japanese when KMT's supporting army landed. And no, KMT's true development did not start until they completely lost the war in mainland and was forced to retreat to Taiwan. Even then, the goal of schools, factories, everything, was for the preparation of re-conquering China. Before lifting the martial law, the KMT claimed to have over 500,000 great army stationed in Taiwan waiting to fight back. You will not develop a country well when your focus is only military, won't you agree?

Cairo Declaration reverts Taiwan's control to the ROC government under Chiang Kai-shek's KMT, it has nothing to do with PRC. ("Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China") Since this is not going to strengthen the case for PRC, I don't think we should even discuss it. I understand that ROC, PRC, Japanese, etc. all occupied Taiwan before, but that only means the occupiers changed. No one really thought for the native Taiwanese who did not know how to speak for themselves in the international world. Now, DPP has stepped up and changed the face of Taiwan. Visit Taipei under Chen, visit Kaoshiung under Hiseh, etc.

Btw, it's San Francisco. And I agree with you, education, media, newspaper, are all just tools. But you should read the textbooks I used when I studied in Taiwan. They desperately needed to be updated. Incorrect facts, misleading quotes, etc. It seems that you pay a lot of attention to the Taiwanese news, where do you get the information? If you read Chinese, I have a good compilation of list of Taiwanese media, I like to read all of them to get different opinions: http://www.chineseypage.com/web-news-tw.htm

Taiwan was there when recently a Japanese dude came out and claimed their textbooks of detailing too much of their atrocity. It was reported in one of the links up there I provided dated 11/29/2004 ( I believe, or 28, it's very recently).

By the way, Chinese mainland suffer greatly from frequent floods, Taiwan has aided China in monetary basis to a great amount. Based on your logic, Taiwan should not have helped becuase China is always bullying us around, right? Heck, I agree! Taiwanese government is rich, and the aid does not always please the people because WE wanted to benefit from the money, but that's besides the point. Taiwanese did handle 921, and did handle SARS on our own. Not to mention SARS broke out in China to begin with and was kept undercover by the government when prompt care could've prevented a wide-spread. 921 help was deterred by the Chinese government, Turkey aid plane was not allowed accross the Chinese territory to help, Red Cross from around the world was not allowed direct help until later. SARS? That's even worse. Go back and lookup "Who cares about you Taiwanese" in google or something. Find the spokesperson for PRC when Taiwan was requesting to join the WHO to jointly find a cure for SARS, as an OBSERVER. My point is exactly this, we can handle stuff on our own even when PRC is pulling our legs, so why wouldn't we think that we are independent? Why wouldn't we WANT to be independent? We are already independent, we just don't have the recognition. Why? Because China's got the fist. Anyone disagrees will get a punch in the face. Do you truly think that anyone CARES about one-China if not to please China?

Why complain? You know that PRC doesn't appreciate Taiwan's Indepedence Movement.