Nice restraint shown PJ.

I'm not trying to make it a pissing match, but your profile indicates you have no military experience, I know it's kind of a trend these days to assume you know just as much as those dudes that have actually gone out and done the deed, but c'mon, let's be realistic.I don't tell a computer guru about his job, or how things are when the networks crash.
WTF??? I don't remember me telling you how to do your job? I was merely stating an opinion that I happen to distrust the Army version of events. We are entitled to our opinions are we not? Thats what this forum is for...

Whether me or anybody else was actually there is irrelevent, if you know how things are in combat, you know what types of accidents can happen and just how easily they can happen.
I agree, as I said there are friendly fire accidents going back to ancient days.

If I wanted an armchair, I wouldn't have reupped, I'm a masochist, what can I say.
Hmm, I'll have to try that sometime..

To even assume he was murdered shows very little understanding of how this particular unit operates.
I was refering to another post (and various internet rumours) I never gave it much stock myself, (on the other hand it did happen in Iraq not to long ago). I do wonder about the circumstances of events surrond the death of Corporel Tillman, and why the Army has been less than streightford in this affair. Remember the Army originally stated that Tillman was killed by enemy fire. So right off the bat the Army started off with a lie, not actually off to a good start wouldnt you agree?

You'll have to excuse me, I was busy wading through much of the other crap you wrote.


I'm confused, is this really lame attempt to flame me your idea of "not wanting to start a pissing match?" I wont respond any further to this.


No one, not even the Pentagon wanted to handle incident by the book, and now because of the media, they want to pretend like they're going to jump in and save the day. Like I said earlier, it's a case of CYA, and it is a complete farce.


Which was precisely what I was saying...

And btw, military has plenty of heros, it doesn't need to shop to find them, they're just there.


I know that, I agree. I wish you would tell the Army that, instead of trying to parade about Jessica Lynch or even Pat Tillman. Why cannot the Army use a few REAL heros for a change? For example, how about playing up Army Medics whose job is to keeping people alive under that worst conditions. Thats real heroism to me. I also find it disrespectful to Tillmans memory to try and play CYA...


And just because they say something happened, doesn't mean it isn't true.
True, but when you have been caught lying a few times it becomes very difficult for people like me (and perhaps yourself) to believe them at face value. I am skeptical about what happened as the Army already lied once.

It might be fun to dislike the military, assume we're the big bad guys while passing judgement on actions you've no experience with from the safety and security of your home, but it doesn't make it right.
Oh and there it is again, I'm critical of the army so therefore Im automatically labelled some anti-military far left hippie. I deeply regret not signing up, and besides If you really read my post I never once questioned the role of the actual soldier. My family has a long tradition of being U.S Army Officers. So your labelling me anti-military is pure bunk.

My criticism is directed toward Army Politics and Bureaucrats whose sole role is to protect the IMAGE of the army, but not necessrily the army itself. Tillman is case in point.

Anyway, I don't want this to turn into some pissing match, like I said, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. [/quote]
I'm not sure what exactly what you are disagreeing with me on. You claim that I am a couch potato general, I don't deny that, but I think you are too (to a lesser degree based on your actual military experiance, which I admit is far greater than mine). You claim friendly fire accidents can happen, I agree, they do, and that they Army is playing a game of CYA will Tillman, which I also think is the case.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

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I'm not sure what exactly what you are disagreeing with me on. You claim that I am a couch potato general, I don't deny that, but I think you are too

, okay dude, whaaaaateeeeeeeeever you say.

PJ
I can buy the possibility of a case of military CYA ... but ... I can also buy the case of information surfacing which raised flags of concern that caused the IG to decide that further investigation was necessary. In order to head off charges of a cover up, the IG decided to remove the investigation from the Army Field Investigator's hands and have the CID do a review and deep investigation of the facts surrounding Tillman's death.

People can kibbutz from the sidelines all day long (and I agree), still NOT really have any concept of the confusion and haze of combat unless they have been there. 'Friendly Fire' deaths have happened in every war since the dawn of time ... but ... I hope people never get into the habit of completely accepting the '**** happens' excuse when it does.

In this particular case (for whatever reason), unresolved questions have resulted in further investigation into one of those deaths.

AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THAT IS THE TOP - BOTTOM AND END OF IT.

Originally Posted by Chief Bones

In this particular case (for whatever reason), unresolved questions have resulted in further investigation into one of those deaths.

Well, there's no point arguing it. I just hope they do the right thing and give the media their dog and pony show and let the incident be exactly as it was without giving them (the media) a sacrficial lamb.

I'm tired of watching innocent guys get strung up because the media thinks they know more about war than the military. And I admit, it's more our top guys fault that that happens than anything else, because they bend to the political pressure and try to cover their own butts, just like with this.

Instead of doing what was right to begin with, they now play innocent and try to let on they didn't know what happened. Guess who is going to pay? The low dogs.

The old story of shite rolling downhill. No different than who paid the bill for Abu Gharib.

Originally Posted by bulldogg

The old story of shite rolling downhill. No different than who paid the bill for Abu Gharib.

Yes.

But with that, they were idiots so I didn't mind them taking a hit. I just wish the higher idiots would have too.

Agreed

England, Granier and the others should have known better, remember there was several soldiers (to their credit) who refused to take part. One of these soldiers wound up being the whistleblower.

That being said, there doubt in my mind that those convicted were the sacrficial lambs for those higher ups who ought to be sharing a cell with them.

I started a thread about this yesterday, but Tomtom pointed me to this one. Yesterday we had a long article in the newspaper regarding Tillman's demise. The point they were trying to make or at least were hinting at was that Tillman wasn't your ordinary GI. He seemed very opposed to the Iraq war, but got transferred overthere from Afghanistan. They said he encouraged his buddies to vote Democrats out of protest against this war. He also allegedly said he was meeting up with Noam Chomsky and you all know his views on this.
Before he had the chance his head was removed by friendly fire, after he had yelled that they were friendlies, he had popped some smoke and in the end showed himself in a lull of the shooting... This does sound suspicious, then again it might be another example of a tragic death.

Ted
Before I would buy into your assertions I am going to need a lot more than just you saying it's so ... how about some third party sources to beef up your post .......