Originally Posted by Del Boy

Ah -the dreaded Neo-Cons again. ANYONE but the enemy who attacked USA and brought America into this current situation. This response just does not explain your unjustified claim at all! Try again please. Geo W. will have served his two terms under great duress and he will then be gone. I see no evidence that he seeks further power.

Here lies the problem, it appears that you have not even a basic understanding of what has been going on in US Politics. Do the names Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz Cheney et al, mean anything to you do you read the papers or watch TV?

Finally -Please confirm the words of the quote you query and have investigated and I will enlighten you.

as Patton tells us . Anyone fancy a walk in his shoes?

Ahhh, I see it now, a poorly placed fullstop, that changes things.

Did I mention IraQ ?

In your previous post you stated.

The casualties are the responsibilty of those who made the call to attack America, and their hordes who applauded.

Now, I don't know if the irony escaped you, but there have been far more casualties in Iraq than anywhere else. Far more than 9/11,.... does this mean that we should be hunting GWB instead of Osama? No, don't even try to answer that.

9/11 was in fact a wake-up call to America as to just what was going on in the world. Al Quaeda is indeed an alliance of Islamic terrorists well supported throughout Islam , based and trained in Afghanistan and other Muslim countries and recruited throughout the Islamic world. This is the war to which I refer, imposed upon America.

So you think that the everyone was blissfully unaware of the threat of terrorism prior to 9/11. Like most crimes it was not foreseen but the possibility was well known. The only really surprising thing was the immensity, and in that regard, the US intelligence services may have got a wakeup call.

It is fatal to enter a war without the will to win it.

Well, we certainly stuffed up there didn't we, we were neither prepared nor willing at the time to fight a protracted campaign. It is only since the local insurgents made it apparent that they were not going to play by our imagined rules that we have realised that this is not going to go according to plan. What little plan there was.

Surely none of us are supporters of torture,

Well, here's just a couple who seem to think that it's OK, and I could find a hundred more references if needed.

(1) http://www.president-bush.com/cheney-torture.html

(2) "The US president has vetoed legislation passed by Congress that would have banned the CIA from using waterboarding and other interrogation techniques. George Bush announced his decision to quash the planned anti-torture measures, included in a broader bill authorising US intelligence activities, in his weekly radio address on Saturday"

And your conclusion is incorrect - the most worthy singular thing arising in this situation is in fact SURVIVAL

There is little doubt that we will survive, but to survive we need to win the war, and our singular best tool to achieve that is world wide support NOT condemnation. Otherwise we may well win the battle but lose the war.

Everything is just so damned screwed up.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Here lies the problem, it appears that you have not even a basic understanding of what has been going on in US Politics. Do the names Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz Cheney et al, mean anything to you do you read the papers or watch TV?

Tut,tut. Here we go again with the put-down insults. Can you not put together an argument without throwing mud. No - here lies the problem - you wish to blame America and Geo W. Bush for all the terrible problems the world faces from a monster ideology, instead of placing them fairly and squarely where they belong. How many more heads will be hacked off before you stop blaming the only people trying to do something about it?

So the answer to your question above is - don't talk nonsense.

Originally Posted by senojekips

I see it now, a poorly placed fullstop, that changes things. In your previous post you stated.Now, I don't know if the irony escaped you, but there have been far more casualties in Iraq than anywhere else. Far more than 9/11,.... does this mean that we should be hunting GWB instead of Osama? No, don't even try to answer that.

Merely a full stop. And yes the 'irony' escapes me. But the flippancy does not. Yes, after the expected tremendously succesful war, the post-war campaign was most unexpectedly awful , and I was a massive critic, politically and militarily, from day one of the first Iraqi Army surrender. However, that is known as getting something wrong, and is very easy to criticize in retrospect.

BUT - the war being fought in Iraq now is against the same forces who initially attacked USA, wish to attack the world, but need to take USA out of the equation first, those who started the war long before the Iraq campaign.

The current Iraq situation is a symptom of the war flagged up by 9/11.

Remember, remember , 11th September.

Originally Posted by senojekips

So you think that the everyone was blissfully unaware of the threat of terrorism prior to 9/11. Like most crimes it was not foreseen but the possibility was well known. The only really surprising thing was the immensity, and in that regard, the US intelligence services may have got a wakeup call.

You do not need to be so damned patronising. This is precisely what I have been indicating. The wake-up call not merely to Intelligence services but to USA and the world. However, some folk have fallen asleep again.

This is no time for sweet-talking, for snake-oil selling, or what we hold dear will certainly not survive. This Ideology which brought about 9/11 and the current blood-shed throughout the world needs to be crushed without compromise. Their supporters only respect power.


I am going to call it a day on this one. My position is that many people wish to blame America for the world's problems, because America is freedom's mighty giant standing between them and their political ambitions to impose their primitive ideology upon the world.
With their fellow travellers, America is always wrong, and this is the fashionable song of today. Bandwagonners unite.

Well - I just don't buy it. I can still tell the difference between the good guys and the monsters.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Tut,tut. Here we go again with the put-down insults. Can you not put together an argument without throwing mud. No - here lies the problem - you wish to blame America and Geo W. Bush for all the terrible problems the world faces from a monster ideology, instead of placing them fairly and squarely where they belong. How many more heads will be hacked off before you stop blaming the only people trying to do something about it?

So the answer to your question above is - don't talk nonsense.

Nonsense,.... t'was not I who said such drivel as "What is good for America is good for the world", and "Surely none of us are supporters of torture", and "that Guantanamo Bay is a necessary tool for dealing with such murderous "dogs " as you mention" Both of these last inane statements having been previously shown to be incorrect. But I guess it would be inconvenient to allow the truth to ruin your argument.

Merely a full stop. And yes the 'irony' escapes me.

Obviously....

BUT - the war being fought in Iraq now is against the same forces who initially attacked USA,

Sorry,... I never heard of any Iraqis involved in 9/11. I was always under the impression that those involved were, 15 Saudis, 1 Egyptian, 1 Lebanese, 2 from the UAE. (as released by the CIA)

And here's the kicker,... None of these countries have been invaded by the coalition, in fact both Saudi Arabia and Egypt are involved as "Allies", with Egypt providing what was hoped to be, "secret Interrogation services". For our "Non supporters of torture"

You do not need to be so damned patronising.

I have a deep seated distrust of panic merchants, especially those who would try to panic those about them.

This is precisely what I have been indicating. The wake-up call not merely to Intelligence services but to USA and the world. However, some folk have fallen asleep again.

I feel that no one is asleep, merely they are not running around with their hands over their heads screaming "We're all doomed"

This is no time for sweet-talking, for snake-oil selling, or what we hold dear will certainly not survive.

BS pure unadulterated BS, Panic merchants unite!

I think you've been reading far too much Ronnie Rumsfeld.

Their supporters only respect power.

No!,... maybe they fear power, but no one in his right mind necessarily "respects" it. The days of "Gunboat diplomacy" are long gone and as said earlier, "fear" may well precipitate a reaction that we will all regret. There are far better weapons than the "sledge hammer" Surely the lessons of conflicts like Northern Ireland haven't been forgotten so quickly?

Originally Posted by senojekips

Nonsense,.... t'was not I who said such drivel as "What is good for America is good for the world", and "Surely none of us are supporters of torture", and "that Guantanamo Bay is a necessary tool for dealing with such murderous "dogs " as you mention" Both of these last inane statements having been previously shown to be incorrect.

I really don't know why I bother - but you tempt me so, which I am sure is deliberate.

How can you describe these rebuffals of your opinion as 'inane' and 'drivel'. I am honoured to stand by them, and it should not be necessary to lay them out for you again. However- if you really need such I will do so. I am particularly comfortable with them and I reiterate them and recommend them to you.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Sorry,... I never heard of any Iraqis involved in 9/11. I was always under the impression that those involved were, 15 Saudis, 1 Egyptian, 1 Lebanese, 2 from the UAE. (as released by the CIA)

And here's the kicker,... None of these countries have been invaded by the coalition, in fact both Saudi Arabia and Egypt are involved as "Allies", with Egypt providing what was hoped to be, "secret Interrogation services". For our "Non supporters of torture"

Sorry -But you surely HAVE heard of non- Iraqis being involved in Iraq - we are fighting there, alongside Iraqis, against that self- same alliance of terror.

Furthermore, you list only the strikers of that same alliance with no mention of where they were recruited and trained and funded. As for the countries you mention - you are right - within those countries are those who wish to pose the same threat, and we also have the same here. We need to be alert to this. And I wonder why these governments co-operated in the manner you specify? Do you wonder why?

Originally Posted by senojekips

I have a deep seated distrust of panic merchants, especially those who would try to panic those about them. I feel that no one is asleep, merely they are not running around with their hands over their heads screaming "We're all doomed"

Ah yes- your old favourite - shoot the messenger or anyone else who has an opposing opinion which is hard to shift.

There it is - the good ol' rant! (Of course we are not all doomed because some brave & responsible folk are on the case.)

Now I also have deep seated distrust of panic merchants, but I also have a very deep-seated distrust of those who attempt to dismiss opposition by branding them with unfounded accusations and popping them into a nice convenient little compartment for ridicule. A very old ploy for combatting unwanted opinion.

I have recounted only what has already happened, and is happening now. Facts.

At the same time, you are hardly in a position to claim that "no-one is asleep".

Now then, you haven't yet produced your favourite 'whinging' card, which I detest. However, in this case, allow me to point out that in fact, you are the 'whinger' here, regarding the situation under discussion. I am only the little voice suggesting that those with the job of defeating a serious enemy be allowed to get on with it in the best way they can. As General Patten would tell us - If a man does his best -what else is there. I am prepared to expect our protectors to do their best, and in the best possible manner open to them.

Originally Posted by senojekips

I think you've been reading far too much Ronnie Rumsfeld.

But you have just accused me of knowing nothing of him. in you last post. Flailing about, are we?

Neither accusation is correct.




[qquote=senojekips;409679]
No!,... maybe they fear power, but no one in his right mind necessarily "respects" it. The days of "Gunboat diplomacy" are long gone and as said earlier, "fear" may well precipitate a reaction that we will all regret. There are far better weapons than the "sledge hammer" Surely the lessons of conflicts like Northern Ireland haven't been forgotten so quickly?[/quote]


I have forgotten nothing, and N. Ireland is another big subject, which incidentally does not fall your way. Another time.


But you have not grasped my point. Forget 'Gunboat Diplomacy' or even 'a whiff of grape-shot' - that is nothing to do with it.

The ideology of our enemies is one of respecting only strength and power, may well include fear as in the case of Sadam and some other middle-eastern rulers, it is simply that they interpret the softer approach as weakness. Any concession brings forth another demand. They have no inclination to accept that the velvet glove can defeat the iron fist. Take a look at their governments. You should be very well aware of this, if you are as well into The Kingdom (Lacey) as you claim.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

I really don't know why I bother - but you tempt me so, which I am sure is deliberate.
How can you describe these rebuffals of your opinion as 'inane' and 'drivel'. I am honoured to stand by them, and it should not be necessary to lay them out for you again. However- if you really need such I will do so. I am particularly comfortable with them and I reiterate them and recommend them to you.

It may be news to you, but the fact that you are honoured to stand by your own "rebuffals" (sic) in no way lessens their inanity in view of the facts.

Sorry -But you surely HAVE heard of non- Iraqis being involved in Iraq - we are fighting there, alongside Iraqis, against that self- same alliance of terror.

Nice try DelBoy. Your statement was and I quote with my own highlighting

BUT - the war being fought in Iraq now is against the same forces who initially attacked USA,

As I clearly pointed out no Iraqis were involved in 9/11, or are you suddenly talking of another "initial attack".

Furthermore, you list only the strikers of that same alliance with no mention of where they were recruited and trained and funded. As for the countries you mention - you are right - within those countries are those who wish to pose the same threat, and we also have the same here. We need to be alert to this. And I wonder why these governments co-operated in the manner you specify? Do you wonder why?

No, but I do wonder why the coalition attacked Iraq and has completely ignored the countries of the actual attackers. Comparing this with a criminal case, you would advocate that in the case of a murder, that the police lock up all of those who disliked the victim, but let the perpetrator go free. Your logic as usual is "odd' to say the very least.

Now I also have deep seated distrust of panic merchants,

You'd better take a good long look in the mirror then, your going to be absolutely horrified.

At the same time, you are hardly in a position to claim that "no-one is asleep".

Pray tell,why? Every time a crime is committed we don't race around with our hands over our heads accusing the police that they are asleep. Well, no one except the panic merchants and trouble makers.

Now then, you haven't yet produced your favourite 'whinging' card, which I detest. However, in this case, allow me to point out that in fact, you are the 'whinger' here, regarding the situation under discussion. I am only the little voice suggesting that those with the job of defeating a serious enemy be allowed to get on with it in the best way they can. As General Patten would tell us - If a man does his best -what else is there. I am prepared to expect our protectors to do their best, and in the best possible manner open to them.

Quite simply, because you are not "whinging" in this case, (to "whinge" is to complain without reason) you are merely disseminating a panic driven view of the facts and in my day panic merchants were pulled before the commanding officer for a good talking to. They run against my grain which is the only reason I get involved in these little "argy bargys" with you.

I feel that you'd be a real barrel of laughs, as a backstop in a tough spot Delboy.

But you have just accused me of knowing nothing of him. in you last post. Flailing about, are we?

A small but important fact, I asked if you were aware of who he was, in regard to the part he played as a NeoCon,... remember

I have forgotten nothing, and N. Ireland is another big subject, which incidentally does not fall your way. Another time.

But you have not grasped my point. Forget 'Gunboat Diplomacy' or even 'a whiff of grape-shot' - that is nothing to do with it.

So you see no similarity between this conflict and the days of Gunboat Diplomacy? Tell me why this does not surprise me?

The ideology of our enemies is one of respecting only strength and power, may well include fear as in the case of Sadam and some other middle-eastern rulers, it is simply that they interpret the softer approach as weakness. Any concession brings forth another demand. They have no inclination to accept that the velvet glove can defeat the iron fist. Take a look at their governments. You should be very well aware of this, if you are as well into The Kingdom (Lacey) as you claim.

You keep using the word "respect", when all the time you mean "fear"

Only the "spineless" show respect in the face of aggression. Our enemy may be criminally misguided and at odds with our views, however there is no way that he can be shown as spineless. Merely the fact that he continues to take up arms against a hugely superior force is proof of that. Would you strap on an explosive belt and sacrifice yourself to give your enemy a poke in the eye? It may be an act of immense stupidity on behalf of the perpetrator in my view, but it is certainly not spineless.

Now,... before the mods close this wildly wandering thread, let's get back to the point about how the use of torture by coalition forces has turned and bitten us on the bum.

Originally Posted by senojekips

It may be news to you, but the fact that you are honoured to stand by your own "rebuffals" (sic) in no way lessens their inanity in view of the facts.

Well - let's just take a look, shall we:-

My quote -'What is good for America is good for the world'. - as the world's greatest and most powerful democracy, America strives to find and preserve what is best for America. Compare this with the rest of the world. I'll buy that against anything else you have to offer. Inane ? Naaah!


My quote-'Surely none of us are supporters of torture'

Er- Hello - Us, you, me, others on this thread. - Inane? Naaah!



My quote - 'Guatanamo Bay is a necessary tool for dealing with such murderous dogs'.

Absolutely - I wonder how many lives have been saved - how many evils overcome. You see- rather than join the mob shouting criticism at every turn, I do try to use my own brain, which has served me very well for the last 72 years. Inane ? Naaah!

Originally Posted by senojekips

Nice try DelBoy. Your statement was and I quote with my own highlighting As I clearly pointed out no Iraqis were involved in 9/11, or are you suddenly talking of another "initial attack".

My quote:- 'the war now being fought in Iraq is against the same forces who initially attacked USA.'


Precisely my fine fellow - The terrorist alliance described by yourself earlier, Iraq being just the current battleground, and ,in fact, currently being conducted by USA and allies together with Iraqi units. And in fact there were other serious acts of war against USA by the very same terrorist alliance.

Do not keep pushing the ridiculous argument that 9/11 was the operation of just the little bunch of pawns who flew the planes. Now that really IS inane. Hello.



Senojekips.
Well - I am ignoring the rest of your post as a great pile of desperate, patronising, insulting rubbish.
I was particularly amused at how you managed to produce and build up the word "spineless", which I had never used, and then proceeded to demolish your own creation, eventually reaching the point where you are prepared to show respect for the suicide bombers who have killed and maimed hundreds if not thousands of men, women and children. Impressed, are you? Yes , as I indicated, that is the sort of power that some folk do respect. BUT - they didn't present themselves to Sadam as suicide bombers did they? No-one hacked off the heads of those in his employ. Not a peep from his subjects. And that's how it goes, until the first sign of weakness - the chink in the armour. And that is what they see in us, and make good use of.


As for this little delicious tit-bit :-

"I feel that you'd be a real barrel of laughs, as a backstop in a tough spot Delboy."

Nice. Well let me tell you that I have played my part, and on those occasions when the call came I never could be found at the back, so I cannot judge whether I would be good laugh in that position.

I will say that my mates from those active-service days, and my old regiment, particularly the Colonel commanding, seem to be happy with my contribution. And strangely enough, some of that was against the very same enemies who now attack America and the world where they can.

Panic? Panic merchant? Trouble-maker? Whinger? Racist? Naaah!

Presenter of facts? Supporter of the real good guys? Guy refusing to get his head well and truly stuck right up where the sun don't shine, and therefore ready to face the real threats? Sure thing!

FINITO BENITO on this one, enough already. Gone fishin -there's a notice on the door.

(Sorry - I torgof to aplogise for fhe tucking fyping error on 'rebuffals' in my lasf posf. I work tasf.)

Yep,.. cut and run. Don't forget to take a drink of water for your guide dog.

Nice to see that everyone is being so civilised.





Just a reminder, gentlemen.

It's great to be holier than though on this subject, but if using torture can save a thousand lives if not more then so be it. Like all these bloody little conflicts there are no prisoners taken by the opposition and if you are unlucky enough to fall into their hands, your death is unlikely to be quick but quite the opposite. Many of those that oppose torture will often chage their minds if they found that it might have saved a life of one of their loved ones.