Originally Posted by MontyB

Personally I think this is one of the most accurate posts made in this thread.

This is accurate? Don't make laugh.

Was there even any one communist country not ruled by a dictator, or a totalitarian oligarchy?

China is barely communist, they are only thriving because they incorporated capitalism.

Veitnam = Communist State.

Cuba = Communist State.

North Korea = Communist state one-man dictatorship.

Get your facts straight. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/cu.html

I think the reason alot of people associate communism with liberalism, is because liberals have this glamorized version of communism. As if communism even actually worked before to the benefit of the population under it. It never has and it never will.

[Actually some classify Cuba as a socialist state. Do I want to live in a socialist state---No thanks!!!]

see now you are all bashing the left/liberals/red/commies (whatever names you want really) without really appreciating where it comes from. this page might help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism

some highlights

The early socialists were utopians: they developed visions of ideal societies based on absolute equality, in which humans co-operated in production for the benefit of all without the need for material incentives, and in which the state was abolished in favour of a system of self-government, or (in a positive sense) anarchy.

The emergence of socialist ideas in Britain and France, and later in Germany and Italy, was a consequence of the industrial revolution. In these countries, the development of manufacturing industry, and related industries such as coal-mining and the railways, produced an industrial working class, referred to by socialists as the proletariat: workers who had nothing to sell but their labour. The misery of the industrial workers in the unregulated economies of the early 19th century provoked anger among many observers, and the formulation of socialist principles was an attempt to devise a way of producing wealth without such crude exploitation. Socialism gained popularity among the working class itself, and, from the mid-19th century onwards, workers formed the backbone of the socialist movement.

Of course, many upper- and middle-class people who were not socialists were also outraged by the plight of the working class. Their response was liberalism: the belief that an enlightened middle class could reform the operations of capitalism so as to produce social justice without infringing the rights of property owners. English thinkers such as John Stuart Mill were at the forefront of this movement. Although Mill considered himself a socialist, he also believed in private ownership of the means of production -- he reserved his socialism for matters of distribution, which he considered a separate subject. In France in 1830 and in England in 1832, liberal political ideas triumphed, and this did much to take the wind out of the sails of the early socialist movement.

but here is the crux of it:

In Marx's theory, "socialism" referred to the stage of history and class structure immediately following the revolution, in which power would pass to the proletariat. According to Marx, once private property had been abolished, the state would then "wither away," and humanity would move on to a higher stage of society, "communism." This distinction continues to be used by Marxists, and is the cause of much confusion. No Marxist, for example, ever claimed that the Soviet Union was a communist society, even though it was ruled by a Communist Party for 70 years. The name of the party is not meant to reflect the name of the social system.

Missileer

I think your bigotry is showing, (the old lets bash France)...
If it werent for France there wouldnt be a US, and if it weren't for the US the French would have remained under Nazi occupation. So its a tie. I call that the perfect type of ally because both nations has spilt blood for the other. Same Goes for the UK.

Thank you for misquoting me. I clearly said THIS ADMINISTRATION meaning the Bush Adminitration and not Americans in general.
If your going to try and disprove me by all means try, but dont make s*** up, Ok?

About my earlier comments. T.Roosevelt disgrees with you. He said in 1920 "There is no truer test of Patriotism then of the American citizen to critize its government". So what you claim is Vitric language, Roosevelt calls Patriotism. Isn't Free Speech a wonderful thing?

03USMC

My patriotism is fine, its yours I'm worried about. Expelling those you dislike or disagree with is a mark of facism. Perhaps you feel those that disagree with King George I should be expelled? The last guys who thought that wore swastikas on their sleeve. What you just said is UNPATROITIC and UN-AMERICAN.

Being an American is not swollowing every Government spoon filled lie as truth. Espically when it comes from people who lie faster than they can breath.

Mmmmmmh ok Chewie just found out that the free world's worst threat after Hitler and before Bin Laden was NOT communism but something else.
Sure.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

03USMC

My patriotism is fine, its yours I'm worried about. Expelling those you dislike or disagree with is a mark of facism. Perhaps you feel those that disagree with King George I should be expelled? The last guys who thought that wore swastikas on their sleeve. What you just said is UNPATROITIC and UN-AMERICAN.

What I said or what I asked? Because apparently you failed to understand the question. I didn't say I wanted to expell you. I
asked you if you you had thought about renouncing your citizenship since apparently you believe the US is now the Fourth Reich.

Comparing yourself to the Founding Fathers is a tad over the top. Since I recall very few of them sitting safely across the big pond amid hand wringing and gnashing of teeth whinning about how bad things were in the Colonies.

As far as comparing my fews to that of a Nazi. Well Number one I wouldn't exactly fit in with all the Aryans. But then that is one of the fave retorts of the LibEuroAppeasement crowd isn't it.

Unpatriotic and UnAmerican. Yeah okay Skippy. Second fave retort for those who fail to smooch your 4th point.

Gladus

Clearly you have no idea what communism is. Very Briefly, Communism is rule by a single party who then chooses a leader, usually for life but not always. The Soviet Union and PRC are such examples. N.Korea and Cuba are not. Both these countries the Head of State wasnt selected but
became leader simply because they had the guns to do so.
Castro and Kim il Sung might call themselves a communist, or the Patron Saint of Constantinople. It doesnt mean a thing. Communism doesnt recognize heritiary succession (like a King) either so clearly you cannot claim N.Korea is communist. Both these countries were reviled by Moscow for being not communist enough in the 1960 and 1970's

What I said or what I asked? Because apparently you failed to understand the question. I didn't say I wanted to expell you. I
asked you if you you had thought about renouncing your citizenship since apparently you believe the US is now the Fourth Reich.

You were indirectly implying it, don't deny it I am not a fool. Apologize or rephrase if you that wasnt your intent but dont take me for stupid. Besides as I posted above criticizing the goverment is the mark of a Patroit.

Comparing yourself to the Founding Fathers is a tad over the top. Since I recall very few of them sitting safely across the big pond amid hand wringing and gnashing of teeth whinning about how bad things were in the Colonies.

I wasnt, you misunderstand. I was making a pun about Bush. As Bush tends to be the most autocratic President since Nixon, I though the name was funny.

As far as comparing my fews to that of a Nazi. Well Number one I wouldn't exactly fit in with all the Aryans. But then that is one of the fave retorts of the LibEuroAppeasement crowd isn't it.

You are right, You dont have to be Aryan Nazis a political philophy. Look at Sudan or ex-Yugoslavia they are not exactly blond hair blue eyes either. I never called you a Nazi, I just drew a simiarity between your statements about me and a certain political philiosophy.

Its true liberals use the term alot. But If conservatives dont want to be called Nazis then they should stop acting like one. Trying to shut me up by initimidation rather than dialogue because you dislike what I say is a tactic used by dictators, and its the principal tactic used by the Extreme right in our country. Why? because when they try rational discourse the liberals usually wipe the floor with them. Look at Election 2004, the whole Bush Campaign was a giant scare tactic.

Like I said, I was a republican (a liberal-moderate) but I cannot swollow a government that uses tactics such as this. And there are more and more GOP or ex-GOP who agree with me.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Missileer

I think your bigotry is showing, (the old lets bash France)...

Thank you for misquoting me. I clearly said THIS ADMINISTRATION meaning the Bush Adminitration and not Americans in general.
If your going to try and disprove me by all means try, but dont make s*** up, Ok?

Being an American is not swollowing every Government spoon filled lie as truth. Espically when it comes from people who lie faster than they can breath.

Soooo, France doesn't bash America every chance they get? TiT for TaT on that one, it's just that you can't take it.

I didn't misquote you. Since the Civil War ended, Everyone pledged allegiance to the Union of America. Any administration voted in is voted in by America. You can't separate the two, it's the will of the people. So you are disparaging Americans.Which is okay, it's legal. I wouldn't but you can. Of course the enemy loves reading your thoughts.

And lastly bigotry, wellll let's see, my nephew is half black and half white, I love him and always will. My Niece married a guy from Singapore and we're like Brothers, my youngest Son is dating the sweetest girl in the World, she's Ethiopian. My family looks like the rainbow when we congregate.

And as far as making _ _ _ _ up, I don't do that, I don't have to.

Gladus

You heard me Reagan was a BAD President.

1. Bad as in creating the worst Deficiet in US history.
2. The fiasco known as Trickle down economics.
3. He TRIPLED our national debt by the time he left office.
4. He traded Weapons for Hostages with an enemy of America. Or that he 5. Ignored the AIDS crisis
6. The expensive War on Drugs was a farce.
7. Became the 2nd most hated President in the World.

Let me guess your retort? the myth he ended the Cold War? Do you really think giving a sanctimonous speech in Moscow made the Soviet Union just dissappear? Russians are not easily initmated and they dont like threats. Did you see what they did in Chechnya? They didnt hesitate to level Grozny (their own city) to the ground. So do you really they were impressed by Reagan? BTW the guys really responisable where

1. Gorbechev, 2. Lech Welsa, 3. Pope John Paul II, 4. Maggie Thatcher 5. Francois Mitterand 6. Ronald Reagan.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Gladus

You heard me Reagan was a BAD President.

1. Bad as in creating the worst Deficiet in US history.
2. The fiasco known as Trickle down economics.
3. He TRIPLED our national debt by the time he left office.
4. He traded Weapons for Hostages with an enemy of America. Or that he 5. Ignored the AIDS crisis
6. The expensive War on Drugs was a farce.
7. Became the 2nd most hated President in the World.

Let me guess your retort? the myth he ended the Cold War? Do you really think giving a sanctimonous speech in Moscow made the Soviet Union just dissappear? Russians are not easily initmated and they dont
like threats. Did you see what they did in Chechnya? They didnt hesitate to level Grozny (their own city) to the ground. So do you really they were impressed by Reagan? BTW the guys really responisable where

1. Gorbechev, 2. Lech Welsa, 3. Pope John Paul II, 4. Maggie Thatcher 5. Francois Mitterand 6. Ronald Reagan.

You're teetering on the edge sonny.