Why is it that the people who work the hardest and contribute the most to society have to pay for those that contribute NOTHING to society?

Well I suggest you round them up and use them in chain gangs, doing hard labour. Or, maybe even cheaper, just shoot them. You have a society filled with succesful people only and we'll have Utopia.
You contribute because they are part of your society. They are Americans too, but I figure they fall outside your definition of "American Dream" etc.

Just remember that the Nazi government was one of the most successful socialist governments ever.

You know that after they decided who did nothing and sent those to concentration camps... Where do the disabled enter the equation? Or better yet, those who were maimed in the line of duty and can't contribute any longer? Their healthcare must be payed by somebody..... It is just too black and white and the world has many other colors. So many hard working peolple had a bad break and ended up on welfare. What are they to you, second-rate citizens that don't deserve the same rights as you do?

Maybe where it all boils down to is; are you willing to pay for your fellow citizen. I gladly pay 33% of my money to a system that has compassion for the less fortunate. I know that some will abuse this and I despise them for it, but giving nothing will leave the needy in the dark too. But I guess that is my socialist side talking. Just answer me this: if you were offered a system were you had to pay no taxes what soever and everybody had to fend for his own, would you accept this offer?

The notion of "are you willing to pay for your fellow citizen" is a complete misnomer. If I had more money I would be giving a lot more of it to charity. There are lots of charity organizations in the US and if you want to give to help out your fellow citizen (like the millions just given to the Red Cross after Hurricaine Katrina) you can. The fact is that the government decided that it was its job to essentially come to your house and say "your money or your life" so it can do what it thinks is best (I.E. get the most votes) with. That diabled guy would be thankful to a church that helped him find employment and brought food to him in his hour of need... that same disabled guy is going to be DAMNED SURE to make it to the polls to vote for the politician who wants to keep that paycheck comming to his door.

That's the difference.

It is a politician taking my money and then taking the credit for giving it to someone else. And if I say I don't want that politician taking my money anymore, the person who is recieving the bennefit of my money gets very angry with me and stands behind the politician who'se forcing me to pay. Because if I work for $1000, that benneficiary of the government programs is ENTITLED to $330; it's not an act of love on my part anymore, it's an evil if I don't pay what I worked for to those that did nothing.

Charity is done by choice, when the government makes it compulsory it loses all meaning.

People should be allowed to take care of themselves. Instead of taking a large portion of everyone's paycheck to pay for government health care we take a small part to pay for those who can not get their own health care and leave it to those who are able to do that little extra work to get adaquate health care to get their own. Instead of making welfare available to a larger number of people we make it available to the smaller number who truly need it. And getting health insurance is not that hard in America. My mom has Diabetes and MS, she get's cheap health, dental, life, accident and home insurance from her employer and as she has told me many times she will die a slow and costly death. My dad works for McDonald's, he is in charge of three resteraunts in northeast Kansas, he has the stereotypical worst job a high school graduate in America can possibly has, he gets free health and dental insurance. Pretty much every state has some sort of insurance policy for those that can not get insurance otherwise, cancer patients and such.

Another reason why we don't believe in socialism is that the world's largest, most powerful socialist government collapsed because of internal problems, corruption and a failing economy.

As for me personally, I believe that in a perfect world communism is the ideal system, everyone does equal work and everyone gets equal reward. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, in a our world some people are lazier than others and a capitalist society allows those who have more drive than others attempt to do that little extra and get ahead in life.

I agree with you Damien, but the trouble with making it available to those who truely need is; how do you asses who needs it?
If it could be done, why not do right now? I personally like it when frauds get the bill for their parasite behaviour, but it isn't that simple... unfortunatly.

And, indeed, if the world was perfect, communism would be a great system. But we all know we live in a world far from perfect. Again, unfortunatly, but that's the way the cooky crumbles.

If the world was perfect, communism would ruin it.

That depends on what you call perfect. A world with equal opportunity for all doesn't sound so bad. I'm talking about the theoretical aspect of communism, not the way they implemented it. I'm also very curious to what your perfect world looks like IG.

Originally Posted by Ted

That depends on what you call perfect. A world with equal opportunity for all doesn't sound so bad. I'm talking about the theoretical aspect of communism, not the way they implemented it. I'm also very curious to what your perfect world looks like IG.

I was taught theory has to take pratice into account, or else theory itself is not valid.
About my perfect world: I think a world where every single country enjoys an imperfect system such as liberaldemocracy would be just fine.

Okidoki, I'll bear that in mind. I was just wondering IG, are you really from Italy? I mistook you for an American Italian already. Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but I'm just curious....... I'm trying to profile you with the things you say, but so far I've been far from succesful. You keep amazing me with the things you say. Some of it I think is rather sharp thinking and good arguments and some are..... well, let's just say "different".
I ment this as a compliment and I hope you think the same of me?

Sure I do, otherwise I wouldn't spend a minute talking to you.
I can feel you're respectful although I seldom agree with you. I hope I sound respectful and polite too.
Anyways, I am 100 % Italian and you'd be amazed at how many Italians think the way I do. After all Berlusconi was democratically elected in 2001 and Italians NEVER in their history gave the majority of the votes to the left.

Marx and Lenin were a couple pretty smart guys who thought long and hard about their theories but they forgot to take into account one major thing. Human nature. Plain and simple, the only flaw in communism is humanity. Also, remember that communism has been corrupted in all its attempts to apply it here on Earth. To my knowledge communism does require that the leaders be paranoid and that they lock-up anyone who mowes their lawn on Sunday or wears white socks and a black belt, but I could be wrong. And also, in a true communist system the government will eventually melt away to nothing and the people will truly be in control. Or such is my understanding from what little time we spent on communism in world history and half the time I only remember thinking "Wow, that is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard." because the theory completely ignored human nature.