Terror attack in Mumbai

LeMask your new version of "the white mans burden" is very heart touching. unfortunatly it has a few problems.

1) its not the responsibilty of the USA, EU or any other country in the world to take care of other countries. If their citizens are not doing anything to create a better life for them selves in their country and instead are buissy either immigrating to other countries and creating problems or becoming terrorists, its not the wests fault its their fault.

2)Fundemental muslims are not driven by economical reasons they are driven by theology. Bin Laden could have been much richer if he staied at his old job. instead he decided to become a terrorist.

3)you need to understand that hearts and minds theories dont apply to some people. some people are simply not on your side, will never be on your side, and honestly you wouldent want them on your side. terrorists need to be killed, their baes destroyed and their financial resources confescated. when people see the price of violence against western powers is high, they will stop. if you show weakness they will continue fighting you.
 
SHERMAN, wiser than ever.

I fully agree with you on most points. But I have to push a little further.

1) I know that the west doesnt have to intervene. But why we support the corrupt regimes?
Saddam is an exemple too. We did sell it weapons... To Iran too. We knew they were corrupt, we knew that they werent elected by their people. But we still used them. And who had to pay the price? the people living there.

We have to admit that we did support these regimes for money, oil Etc... We did sell chemical weapons to Saddam knowing that he was a dictator and a maniac...

And tell me about one French leader arrested for selling weapons to Saddam. Or one US leader...

2) Yes, there is extremists among Muslims who just want to die to reach heaven and party with many virgins... Twisted guys. I cant deny...

3) on your third point... I have a little problem. First, you say that some people cant be reasoned. And then, you say that we have to teach them to fear us.

Is it only me who is noticing the contradiction here? Are we going to threaten a person who wants to die?

As I see it. We will actively try to eliminate crazy extremists. And we will hit innocents in the process. This is so wrong...
Dont you see that it will give legitimacy to these crazy extremists?

We have to stay strong. And to use our military superiority as a last resort. Our main weapon is human rights. We have to show them that we are the good guys.
 
I don't think Theology has anything to do with terrorist actions. Its all about power. The use religion as a tool to recruit people in the Middle East. Those same terrorist use money as another tool to recruit people in other poor regions. They themselves live a double standard. I met so many Iraqis that claim to be religious and pure in min d but when i personally got to know them, they turned out to be just like any other man thats perverted, crooked and a lier. They use religion as a tool against none muslims when they are mad at you, or whe they want to get out of doing something for you. Like Ramedan, they supposed to be fasting and refraining from sex. But behind closed doors, they looking at porn, messing with eachother and alot of things when they think they can get away with. I wrong to kill almost in any religion but do you think thats what stops them. Even in America there were domestic terrorist which claim to be all about peace and against war but turn around and try to blow up families and tolple the government. They just use "peace loving" :peace:as a recruiting tool when their real goal was to take over the country.
 
Sherman:No, its not time to call other people backwards. sorry. maybe tommarow.
 
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1) I know that the west doesnt have to intervene. But why we support the corrupt regimes?
Saddam is an exemple too. We did sell it weapons... To Iran too. We knew they were corrupt, we knew that they werent elected by their people. But we still used them. And who had to pay the price? the people living there.

We have to admit that we did support these regimes for money, oil Etc... We did sell chemical weapons to Saddam knowing that he was a dictator and a maniac...
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during the cold war there was basically no choice but to give western money to people that were dictators because other wise they would become soviet supporters. the problem is that the USA and other western countries sometimes have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. the Saudi governemnt is currupt but it is the only reall option for the USA to get a foot hold in the parsian gulf. the west dose buissiness with saudi arabia because of oil and because we want to keep the iranians at bay. dont get me wrong i dont like the saudis but they are a hell of a lot better than their friends across the gulf.

3) on your third point... I have a little problem. First, you say that some people cant be reasoned. And then, you say that we have to teach them to fear us.

Is it only me who is noticing the contradiction here? Are we going to threaten a person who wants to die?
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The thing is that while they are willing to die(some of them at least), they are not wiling to become extinct. even the most radical muslim groups, such as hammas, are willing to enter cease-fire(the islamic term is tahadia or hudna) in order to preserve them selves. basically if they believe they are going to loose they are allowed and encouraged by islam to lay low and wait untill their strong. our job is to convince them constantly that they cant match up.
 
SHERMAN:dont play spite with me, I will get extremely unpleasent.
 
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Your "small part" of the muslim community's orchestrated and carried out 911.

You see the attacks as a warning? ......................DUH! its a warning that sombody wants to kill you.

Look at Irak. We bomb them, and they turn the whole country into a terrorist nesting place...
oh wait, isn't that just a "small part" of the people?
 
Sherman

3)you need to understand that hearts and minds theories dont apply to some people. some people are simply not on your side, will never be on your side, and honestly you wouldent want them on your side. terrorists need to be killed, their baes destroyed and their financial resources confescated. when people see the price of violence against western powers is high, they will stop. if you show weakness they will continue fighting you.
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SOME Terrorists cannot be reasoned with, but not all. This is the mistake we keep making not every member of a terrorist Organization wants to be a martyr. You Isrealis should have known by now that you simply cannot kill EVERY terrorist out there, everyone you kill 10 more take his place. Sooner or later you are going to have to hold your nose and make a deal. The terrorists too know this, thats why groups like Sinn Fein and ETA have been willing to sit down, with the various Iraq groups sat down with the US, and why Ehud Barak sat down with Arafat.

Where has the sole use of blunt force actually worked? It didn't work in the Middle East, it didnt work in Iraq, it didn't work in Northern Ireland, in Columbia, or in Indonesia. The only way you are going to destroy terrorism is by destroying its roots whether it be the Occupation of the West Bank, or the US intervention in Iraq, etc...
 
You Isrealis should have known by now that you simply cannot kill EVERY terrorist out there, everyone you kill 10 more take his place. Sooner or later you are going to have to hold your nose and make a deal.
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Sorry, i disagree. my fellow countrymen have grown soft over the years, that is true. however fact is you can and indeed we have caused terrorists tobe too buisy hiding for them to be able to fight us.
 
You know what is the problem? I see too much ideology. Maybe that I'm doing my part too. But cant help it I guess...

My ideology is simple. I respect the law. I respect principles.

"Everybody is innocent until they are proven guilty by a fair trial. "
This thing is important. It will save your life, and it saved your lives many times since you are born.

You cut this rule, your life is worthless. Because all the unfair people will fall on you. Maybe not today, but in a year... or then, or in a century on your kids.

We cant come here like Nazis and try to solve problems with mass extremination plots. Didnt history teach you anything?

It's disguting. And to think that some people who expressed such ideas were in the army, carrying guns and holding the power of life and death scares the **** out of me...

We are fighting a war against barbarism... We are fighting to spread stability. To spread human rights. To spread freedom and civilization.

Our job is to install and launch a process where we call people around a table, peacefully, to discuss human rights, freedom and civilization. Not our idea of civilization, but just to put a debate. We are looking for good intent.

It will need sacrifices. It's dangerous. But it's worth living for... and sometimes, dying for.

Thank the lord. We have technology on our side. We have advanced weapons. We have a working economy.

We can afford it. We can afford these sacrifices.
 
No, it's not called ideology, it's called reality.
It's the way things have always been and those who haven't had the stomach for it paid the price by having to see their glorious capital cities get raped and plundered.

If you cannot win their love or their respect, you have to make them fear you. And believe me, just killing them is not the only threat that's out there.
In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese didn't screw around with the South Koreans because the South Koreans took no prisoners. If a Vietcong killed one South Korean, the South Koreans would move into the village he came from and would kill ten people in his place. The result? The North Vietnamese eventually learned to stay out of the South Korean troops' area of operations and engaged the Americans instead.
Hearts and minds only works once the enemy is soundly beaten. Until then, you're only dumping them supplies. And make sure the ones that side with you are treated well, but if they betray you, well, need I say more?

I remember a short training session on taking prisoners. It was short, no one gave two squirts a piss and we all knew what we were going to do if it really came down to it anyway.
 
I dont think that killing innocent people is the proof that someone has guts or "the stomach"...

We dont have the same definition of "having guts" or "having stomach"... definetely.

Anyway... It's not allowed. We are in 2008. We have human rights, laws, conventions... We dont allow torture, murder... assassinations etc...

Only criminals do that, and we are at war against criminals.

And I guess that as soldiers, you have to be disciplined. To obbey the rules, to follow orders. You are not militias or an angry mob... But trained professionals. You have rules of engagement...

I understand you. It would be easier to kill terrorists if we ignore the hostages and charge with big guns blasting around... but where is the honor in that?

Why we waste so much time and money to train soldiers if all we have to do is to pay scientist and build factories to make nukes and drop bombs on anyone causing trouble ignoring the people living around him...

We can cure aids by putting anyone infected in a big oven and burning the virus to the last specimen...
But why we dont? Why we dont fix unemployement by killing anyone who is looking for a job?
All you have to do is to put a magazine in a rifle and to shoot them... Easy as pie.
But why we dont?

You see Redneck? If we start thinking like that. There will be no stop... And we will turn into nazis...
 
Our job is to install and launch a process where we call people around a table, peacefully, to discuss human rights, freedom and civilization. Not our idea of civilization, but just to put a debate. We are looking for good intent.
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Our job is to protect our countries and our way of life. To make sure you grandaughter wont have to wear a burka and that mu grandaughter gts to live at all. So no, we are not fighting to make the democratic. it would be a nice bounus but its not the point.
 
LeMask,
Go to Afghanistan. Try reasoning. There's no reason not to. After all, since you pose no threat, they should be very welcoming of you. And don't go to the areas oppressed by coalition forces either. Go to the mountanous regions that also encompass Pakistan. That's the place you want to go. Tell them that you represent people from Europe who want to stop the fighting and want peace.
Go do it. According to what you say, you should be perfectly fine.
 
I have no issue with Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion or belief. I have a problem with the scum of the Earth and the terrorists.

Simple solution to terrorism and criminals. Kill them.... they cannot repeat their crimes.

This is a fight to the death. We (our society) fears death... they don't. Thus they have a key advantage over us. The only way we can solve that issue is what American Troops did 100 years ago. Disgrace the terrorists' religion.

If a Islamic Terrorist believes that he will go to paradise after killing himself and many other with a bomb on his chest or for getting into a raging gun battle and die at the end then we must disgrace his body and advertise the fact that we do. Bury him upside down away from Mecca, cover him in pig's blood, dip our rounds in pig's blood, etc...

Faith is the key to their fighting. If you remove the faith that they will have a good afterlife then you remove the will to fight. Death will not scare them but not being able to enter paradise will.

'Nuff Said...
 
If a Islamic Terrorist believes that he will go to paradise after killing himself and many other with a bomb on his chest or for getting into a raging gun battle and die at the end then we must disgrace his body and advertise the fact that we do. Bury him upside down away from Mecca, cover him in pig's blood, dip our rounds in pig's blood, etc...
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Im not sure that would work. Firstly it will get alot of bad responses from muslims who are not terrorists. Secondly, it is against the christian and jewish faith to do this to a body.
But more importantly, i assure you that the same religous leaders who allow suicide bombings(which are against islam) will also find ways to claim that these people will go to heaven even after being burried with a pig.
 
LeMask said:
Del Boy, I know people who gave me the same speech you just gave me here. The only difference is the language.

Let's be logic for a second. We all know that the Arab countries are ruled by very corrupt governments. Just think of an exemple like Saudi Arabia. They dont respect human rights. They are a nest for terrorism and extremist ideology. And yet, we can see our presidents making speeches and kisses with Saudi princes and kings from time to time.

You know the difference between a Saudi and a Taleban? A degree in an university and a big account in some bank...

And yes, there is people who cross the borders illegaly. But why they do that? to run away from misery. What pushs you to think that they want to run from their culture?

Give them high salaries in their own countries and they will stay there. But they live in poor countries, so they try to leave. And you are an American, you should know much about the "pursuit of happiness" and the "american dream"...

They want a steak on their table and a big car... end of story.

You never worked for a boss you hated? You never followed a course with a teacher you didnt like? You never spent time with people you disliked because you were interested in their daughter?

It's life man. If you were a poor mexican, you would be trying to jump the border too.
If you were an African living in a hell hole, you will be risking your life to cross the sea and reach Europe.

Is it so hard to understand?
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Yes, if we really want to be logical, here we are:-

Yes, the Arab countries have many corrupt governments. yes, Saudi plays a dangerous game.

Yes, the difference between Saudi and a Taliban is Bin Laden.

Yes, illegals swarm Europe. But tell me why, having escaped their hell-holes and finding shelter, they immediately decide to change the nature of their new homeland, by rejecting integration, cursing their non-muslim neighbours, and bombing them ? All in order to change their new home into another hell-hole like the one they have escaped from. Why are they never satisfied?

Yes, I have worked for bosses I disliked, most weterners have. Yes, I disliked most of my teachers, I was caned regularly, bent over in front of the class. I always expected parents of girls to defend their daughters against suitors initially.

Yes I have been without steak or a big car, like most westerners.

We have enormous numbers of very poor folk, uncomplaining and living on a pittance.

Mexicans have a different agenda, they are not on a mission to obtain complete religious control, so I understand the economic attraction of America, and I am sure they do not wish to turn it into Mexico.

We are talking of the those being driven by their religious masters, who are driving them by religious fundamentalism, pawns seeking a martyrdom that their religious masters carefully avoid for themselves.

Logic ; if your economic argument was logical, why the rejection of their new culture, and causing death and destruction to be spread around. Fundamental hatred.
 
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Wow wow... Easy Del boy... You are dangerously linking terrorism with immigration. There is HUGE difference between an immigrant and a terrorist. You cant attack someone just because someone of his same religion/skin color/culture attacked you...

There is the terrorist who wants to harm innocents and there is the honest worker who wants a better life. Dont mix them up. Just dont...

I understand that terrorism uses the large people flows between the different countries in the world to move personnel... But I dont see you kicking the Saudis out of your country when they come as tourists to spend their money...

I take the honest working Paskistani anytime...

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SHERMAN is right, the military's job is to protect the homeland... I know that Israel is surrounded, and you guys did a great job holding your enemies out...
But when it comes to Europe or the US... They have nothing seriously capable of invading them...
I think that we are safe. Israel is the only country that is really in harms way... But still, any country knows that Israel have plenty of allies behind her. I'm not worried.

I think that we should calm things down, and focus on peace process. Wars cost too much. And they dont solve problems. Just make new ones.

The world is too complex today, we cant go there with guns shooting anyone we dont like.
And we have laws and conventions. It's what makes us advanced countries. If we stop respecting them... We could be nuking our own countries, it will have the same effect...

The biggest danger is to see our own people turning down against us.

Redneck:
In Afghanistan, I would do one thing. I will show that I'm ready to help any tribe/group who wants my help. And If some hands rise up asking for our help. We get there. We will have local allies. And then we will provide security, build schools, training and military training...

And then, I will wait for the movement to spread out. People around will learn that X called for our help and got it. And then we spread slowly but surely... And we wont be in the front line... The locals will be. We wont fight for them, we will just give them the means to fight for themselves...

Of course, we put our conditions. give the women the right to vote, and we build schools. Etc...
 
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((Wow wow... Easy Del boy... You are dangerously linking terrorism with immigration. There is HUGE difference between an immigrant and a terrorist. You cant attack someone just because someone of his same religion/skin color/culture attacked you...))

No one has been attacked just because another person from his country has come here, we attack them AFTER they attack us, hence 911 eth govt knew about Bin Laden sionce Ollie North stood in front of congress back in teh '80, but did nothing because he didn't do anything to us first. in my opinion that was a VERY stupid mistake on the part of my govt. There are some people in this world that just need to be killed in advance.
 
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My wife trying to tell me that the terrorists were angry at us because we reject and exclude them.
I told her that they're angry at us because she has the right to work, a right to speech, can choose which faith to follow or not follow and is allowed to drive a car. Obviously there was more to it but I can't be arsed to write it here right now.
 
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