Originally Posted by Ted

I don't really agree with you on this. I recited the "zakat", I believe it was called, on more then one occasion. This has almost always been done for explaining about the Islam to pupils. In my opinion there is absolutely nothing religious to that. The words are the same, but when a devout muslim speaks them or I do..... well, to me it makes quite a difference.

Oh, yeah, you're right. Reading/reciting verses from the Qu'ran is completely different than reading verses from the Bible. Same with reciting Islamic prayers, a totally different thing than say, reciting the Apostles Creed, Nicean Creed, Athanasian Creed, et al.

You've got some major double standards going on here, Ted. Either you are for religion in schools or you aren't. You can't be for ONE religion in schools and not others or you'll be a hypocrite in a huge way.

One can be educated on Islam without being required to role play the part of a Muslim.

What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

(Zakat is the third pillar of Islam, btw, giving of alms.)

I dunno, I've had history teachers who told me that we didn't use parachutes until after WWII and that we didn't have "embedded reporting" until 2003 *cough Ernie Pyle et. al cough*. Luckily for me, I've always had the prior knowledge to set them straight and have them later contradict themselves.

As for this, "roleplaying" doesn't seem (from the student's view) to be an effective method of teaching about a religion. Students have a limited window of opportunity in which to attend class, and these activities would probably take up extraordinary amounts of class time. I fail to see the practicality in it, and quite frankly am alarmed on principle at the exclusivity of the curriculum.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Gladius

What I'm saying is that it sounds like this course is more about the history of religons rather than the religous instruction that the ASN was claiming. Its also quite disengenuous that the ASN failed to mention that Islamic teachings was only 1 of 11 parts into the study of religon. And lastly that this claim was made by an evanglist group (whom are not the most impartial not tolerant group of people I have ever met) not a news service casts a shadow over the credibility of this report.

But why did you bring it up after I had already brought up news from a non-religiuos news sources (a liberal one at that) showing the legitimacy of the report.

You were making people doubt the credibility of the story when in fact it was true.

Not to mention neither are Muslims the most tolerant people but somehow the left seems to excuse their behavior so often.

Originally Posted by PJ24

Oh, yeah, you're right. Reading/reciting verses from the Qu'ran is completely different than reading verses from the Bible. Same with reciting Islamic prayers, a totally different thing than say, reciting the Apostles Creed, Nicean Creed, Athanasian Creed, et al.

You've got some major double standards going on here, Ted. Either you are for religion in schools or you aren't. You can't be for ONE religion in schools and not others or you'll be a hypocrite in a huge way.

One can be educated on Islam without being required to role play the part of a Muslim.

What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

(Zakat is the third pillar of Islam, btw, giving of alms.)

Actually I am against the entire reciting thing. But what do you call it when you cover the topic and speak the Salat (it has to be this pillar if the other is wrong ) So I would necessary call it hypocrisy, because all religions would get the same airtime. And yes, we would recite the 10 commandments (I actually hate the word recite, because it is not what I mean...).

And you are right about the role playing bit, but that isn't in the curriculum if I were the teacher.

Originally Posted by Ted

Actually I am against the entire reciting thing. But what do you call it when you cover the topic and speak the Salat (it has to be this pillar if the other is wrong ) So I would necessary call it hypocrisy, because all religions would get the same airtime. And yes, we would recite the 10 commandments (I actually hate the word recite, because it is not what I mean...).

And you are right about the role playing bit, but that isn't in the curriculum if I were the teacher.

Salat is the second pillar of Islam and is the five daily prayers. So that too, is crossing the line of what isn't supposed to be accepted in public schools.

Originally Posted by PJ24

Salat is the second pillar of Islam and is the five daily prayers. So that too, is crossing the line of what isn't supposed to be accepted in public schools.

Okay, then we turn it around. If you would want to explain about the Islam in a Christian society, would you or wouldn't you talk about the content of their daily prayer? I don't mean getting on your knees facing east, but to talk about it..... and yes, maybe let them repeat it after you. It is a foreign language so rehearsing these foreign sounds isn't bad is it?

It is a different ball game if they have to know it by heart. Then you start crossing the line.

Originally Posted by Ted

Okay, then we turn it around. If you would want to explain about the Islam in a Christian society, would you or wouldn't you talk about the content of their daily prayer? I don't mean getting on your knees facing east, but to talk about it..... and yes, maybe let them repeat it after you. It is a foreign language so rehearsing these foreign sounds isn't bad is it?

It is a different ball game if they have to know it by heart. Then you start crossing the line.

That's the thing, from the article, they were actually preforming the acts/rituals, etc. Talking about religion is one thing, and I believe it's great to educate kids on w hat others believe to help promote tolerance and understanding, it's another thing to make them pretend to be what they're learning about. I don't see any reason they need to recite the prayers, however. The teacher could easily read them and explain what the phrases mean to that particular religion, but there's no reason the children need to recite the prayers, "simulate" fasting, etc.

As for it being a foreign language, well, you don't have to use prayers to introduce foreign sounds.

In Islamic societies do they teach about other religions? If so do they recite the Lord's Prayer? Do they recite the Nicene Creed? If the answer to these questions is no then I must in all honesty question why we are doing it in the West. I am beginning to think more and more that this is a subject that should be taught during week 4 of Basic training.

A prayer is still a prayer, no matter what language its in. Christianity used to be tought only in Latin, but it still meant the same thing as it does today...Knowing it by heart,ok, sure, if you say something but dont really mean it, then its a different ball game? What if I said, "All Muslims are going to hell."(IN NO WAY AM I SAYING THAT IN REAL LIFE THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL SIT.)But I said I didnt really mean it. There would still be a whole world of angry people at me, wouldnt there?

It seems that we all mean the same, more or less. Talking and educating about foreign religions is alright. But stressing and over-emphasizing this is crossing the line. Treat all religions equally and keep it in perspective, that would be my final word on this topic.