Originally Posted by loki

Leopard wins Greek tank shoot-out

The winner of the Greek Main Battle Tank (MBT) competition is expected to be announced in August this year but results of competition trials obtained by Jane's Defence Weekly have placed the German-made Leopard 2A5 in pole position.

The first batch of MBTs will be for 250 vehicles plus variants. Between October and December 1998 six MBTs carried out extensive firepower and mobility trials in Greece manned by Greek Army crews. These were the French Giat Industries Leclerc; German Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Leopard 2A5 in latest Swedish Strv 122 configuration; Russian Omsk Machine Construction Plant T-80U; Ukrainian Malyshev Plant T-84; UK Vickers Defence Systems Challenger 2E; and the US General Dynamics Land Systems M1A2 Abrams.

Of these six vehicles, out of a maximum possible operational and technical score of 100%, best performing were: Leopard 2A5, 78.65%; M1A2 Abrams, 72.21%; Leclerc, 72.03%; and Challenger, 2E 69.19%

The Leopard 2A5 was the only one with a demonstrated deep fording capability, while the M1A2 had the best firing results during hunter/killer target engagements.

The German 1,500hp MTU EuroPowerPack was fitted in both the Leclerc and the Challenger 2E and these two vehicles had the best cruising range and lower fuel consumption.

According to JDW sources, the recommendation of the Greek Armour Directorate to the Council for Defence Planning and Programme was that the choice be limited to just two vehicles: the German Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Leopard 2A5; and the US General Dynamics Land Systems M1A2 Abrams.

In addition to the results of the operational and technical trials a number of other factors were taken into account, such as the total number of vehicles built, number of users, NATO interoperability and experience of the Greek Army with current German and US MBTs.

While these operational and technical trials will play an important part in the Greek decision-making process, other crucial factors include: the offset arrangements; Greek added value; and politics. Of the above four MBTs, three are currently taking part in the Turkish Land Forces Command MBT trials. These are the Leopard 2A6; Leclerc; and M1A2. Vickers Defence Systems decided to concentrate on just one market, Greece.

The first batch of 250 MBTs and 12 armoured recovery vehicles will be followed by a second batch of 400, with most of these expected to be manufactured in Greece.

How many have seen tank on tank combat or urban warfare?

Originally Posted by Cadet Seaman

How many have seen tank on tank combat or urban warfare?

Afaik the Challenger 2 and M1A2 were used in both gulf wars. The T80 and T84 were/are probably used in Afghanistan and Czeczenia (guess). The Leopard 2A5 was used in Bosnia and recently in Kosovo as part of KFOR peacekeeping mission. I recently read about one incident in the Bosnia war where some Danish Leopard tanks came under heavy fire by serbian artiellery and several hundred infantry men with AT weapons. The Leos performed well, none was destroyed, the serbs lost some 50-100 men. There are some incidents of urban warfare involving the Leo too. I don't know about any tank ond tank combat. As for the Leclerc, I'd say it was probably used in some of those numerous small-scale operations the French do in West-Africa.

Its true that there have always been weapon systems that were overrated and didn't work out in battle as intended, as seen for example in the Falklands war. However I think its very unlikely that an MBT like the Leopard that has been developed over the course of 30 years and is used in a dozen armies has any serious flaws there weren not discovered until today. I think armored vehicles in general are tested much more extensively than say a frigate. No army will risk losing an X billion dollar vessel to see how much it can take, while this is the norm in the development of a tank.

In general I agree with you statement that there is not much difference between most 3rd generation tanks. For tank on tank combat any of those will do. For urban warfare I would imagine the Israeli Merkava is better suited as it was constructed with that purpose in mind.

Originally Posted by loki

Afaik the Challenger 2 and M1A2 were used in both gulf wars. The T80 and T84 were/are probably used in Afghanistan and Czeczenia (guess). The Leopard 2A5 was used in Bosnia and recently in Kosovo as part of KFOR peacekeeping mission. I recently read about one incident in the Bosnia war where some Danish Leopard tanks came under heavy fire by serbian artiellery and several hundred infantry men with AT weapons. The Leos performed well, none was destroyed, the serbs lost some 50-100 men. There are some incidents of urban warfare involving the Leo too. I don't know about any tank ond tank combat. As for the Leclerc, I'd say it was probably used in some of those numerous small-scale operations the French do in West-Africa.

Its true that there have always been weapon systems that were overrated and didn't work out in battle as intended, as seen for example in the Falklands war. However I think its very unlikely that an MBT like the Leopard that has been developed over the course of 30 years and is used in a dozen armies has any serious flaws there weren not discovered until today. I think armored vehicles in general are tested much more extensively than say a frigate. No army will risk losing an X billion dollar vessel to see how much it can take, while this is the norm in the development of a tank.

In general I agree with you statement that there is not much difference between most 3rd generation tanks. For tank on tank combat any of those will do. For urban warfare I would imagine the Israeli Merkava is better suited as it was constructed with that purpose in mind.

I totally agree.

Remember that the danish leo 1's ware attacked alot in bosnia, wonder how they would do with their new Leo 2's

Love the "story" of the swedish (forgot what rank and what that would be in english) started cussing and arguing with both the bosnian side and the swedish side in a stand down, taking control of pertty much both sides within minutes haha

Originally Posted by loki

The Leopard 2A5 was used in Bosnia and recently in Kosovo as part of KFOR peacekeeping mission. I recently read about one incident in the Bosnia war where some Danish Leopard tanks came under heavy fire by serbian artiellery and several hundred infantry men with AT weapons. The Leos performed well, none was destroyed, the serbs lost some 50-100 men.

Note that these were Leo 1s. I heard they even sustained direct RPG hits with minimal damage.

Originally Posted by AlexKall

Love the "story" of the swedish (forgot what rank and what that would be in english) started cussing and arguing with both the bosnian side and the swedish side in a stand down, taking control of pertty much both sides within minutes haha

Sounds cool. Can you elaborate a little more?

Originally Posted by Mohmar Deathstrike

Note that these were Leo 1s. I heard they even sustained direct RPG hits with minimal damage.

Not surprising, a Marine Corps M48A3 in Veitnam survived 22 hits from RPG's during the battle for Hue, the crew was a bit shook-up but they changed out with another crew and finished the patrol. And then it comes down to what warheads the enemy is using.

Originally Posted by Mohmar Deathstrike

Note that these were Leo 1s.

Oh... yes you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. How come they used such old material there?

Originally Posted by loki

Oh... yes you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. How come they used such old material there?

Denmark may not have had any newer tanks back then. This brings up the question: Why did they send in troops at all then?! Either way, as it turned out, the Leo 1 was well up to that specific task.

Denmark pretty recently got their Leo 2's, been using Leo 1 till recently.

"Sounds cool. Can you elaborate a little more?"

The story of Stupni Do and Norbat 2.

http://forum.soldf.com/index.php?s=&...dpost&p=152196

"Suddenly Colonel Ulf Henricssons jeep shows up out of nowhere. The short statured - but oh so powerful - colonel steps out and starts shouting orders at both Swedes and HVO soldiers. The HVO men look almost astonished, and like magic Henricsson dominates the scene in a manner few people are capable of. He takes control of the situation and defuses it completely. We quite simply leave, leaving behind a large group of open-mouthed HVO soldiers."

Also found info about Leo 1 DK's encounter with serbian tanks. Trying to find more info on Operation Amanda

"Hell yeah!" for the colonel. The militaries of the world need more like him.