Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

And I'm sorry, but it IS the duty of the police "To Serve and Protect." That's what they're there for... Their main responsibility is not to write tickets for speeding or not using a turn signal. Their main purpose is not to break up house parties... Their MAIN responsibility and focus is (and should be) the safety of citizens. That's why they're allowed to do the things they can do... Because we trust them with our safety.

It is the Duty of Law Enforcement to maintain the public order, protect the public at large, and conduct law enforcement operations and arrest and lodge criminally charged persons whether by court order (warrant) or thru general activity by the Peace Officer in the course of his assigned duties (Probable Cause Arrest).

Safety of the Citizen? Speeding, improper lane change, careless and imprudent driving, DUI , all effect your safety and everyone elses.

House Parties? The Public order and safety especially if minors are involved.

Your completely missing the point....or ignoring it (as predicted) because it doesn't fit your view.

The Point is this: The Police cannot be and are not responsible for your personal safety 24/7/365. You hold that responsibilty. So sayth SCOTUS.

That means (lemme break it down for ya) You call 911 because Mr. Anti-Social and his buddies Mr. Mayhem and Violation are kicking in your door.

The call is dispatched the officer is 5 minutes out.

By the time the 1st unit arrives on scene they have capped you in the head and done unspeakable things to your girl friend.

You, your survivors, your girl friend whoever can not hold the PD responsible because they were not there "in time" to prevent the crime.

It is a very common misconception for people to believe the police are there to "protect you", but they are only a reactive force.

In the example of another thread on this forum the police repeatedly put the man away. Only for him to be eventually released to carry on in the same manner.

Police: SC killer should have been behind bars (AP)

This last time, they were able to greatly reduce the possibility he would continue his criminal acts.

On a individual basis people are responsible for their own safety. The right of self defense is not granted by the government, it was yours when you were born. The only thing governments do, is seek to limit what constitutes self defense.

Originally Posted by 03USMC

It is the Duty of Law Enforcement to maintain the public order, protect the public at large, and conduct law enforcement operations and arrest and lodge criminally charged persons whether by court order (warrant) or thru general activity by the Peace Officer in the course of his assigned duties (Probable Cause Arrest).

Safety of the Citizen? Speeding, improper lane change, careless and imprudent driving, DUI , all effect your safety and everyone elses.

House Parties? The Public order and safety especially if minors are involved.

Your completely missing the point....or ignoring it (as predicted) because it doesn't fit your view.

The Point is this: The Police cannot be and are not responsible for your personal safety 24/7/365. You hold that responsibilty. So sayth SCOTUS.

That means (lemme break it down for ya) You call 911 because Mr. Anti-Social and his buddies Mr. Mayhem and Violation are kicking in your door.

The call is dispatched the officer is 5 minutes out.

By the time the 1st unit arrives on scene they have capped you in the head and done unspeakable things to your girl friend.

You, your survivors, your girl friend whoever can not hold the PD responsible because they were not there "in time" to prevent the crime.

Again, you completely either misunderstand (or ignore, as "predicted") my point. I NEVER SAID that the police SHOULDN'T do those things, only that they are NOT the number one responsibility of the police... If a call comes in that a house party is getting too loud and needs to be told to quiet down and another call comes in that there have been shots fired in a residential neighborhood, which one does an officer equidistant away go to?


Exactly.


But this is getting slightly off the topic...

Clearly as shown by a previous statement, South Africa is in need of some major changes in the first place... I wouldn't be worried about gun laws... There are bigger fish to fry.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Again, you completely either misunderstand (or ignore, as "predicted") my point. I NEVER SAID that the police SHOULDN'T do those things, only that they are NOT the number one responsibility of the police... If a call comes in that a house party is getting too loud and needs to be told to quiet down and another call comes in that there have been shots fired in a residential neighborhood, which one does an officer equidistant away go to?

Back tracking again? Don't worry. That's why calls are assigned with priorities.

If I as a Law Enforcement Officer have the need to carry a "high capacity" pistol with spare magazines plus a shotgun and a rifle or sub machine gun why should my fellow law abiding citizen be restricted to ten rounds and the type of arm used for their defense?

Why should you not be able to have access to the best equipment that you could possibly buy? What is common now as hunting arms were once cutting edge military equipment.

The common bolt action rifle was once the cutting edge of the infantry rifle. Right now the cutting edge in equipment is a 30rd capacity magazine fed rifle firing a intermediate rifle cartridge. It's light, handy, compact, can be used by women and small stature people without an issue and the cartridge that it shoots is a proven hunting cartridge for small/medium game.

It's what I use as a police officer and it's what many people I know use to defend our freedoms in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. I also know many citizens that are buying them like hot cakes for a number of reasons. They're good for self defense and they are handy for hunting in the brush of Florida for hog and deer. They can be customized for the individual shooter and they work well.

Lastly.... why should the Government rule what I can use and you cannot? Man was created equal. That is one of the basis of our rights in the Constitution. Having a separate set of rules from some is not legal or constitutional.

The restriction of arms is wrong.... we're talking about firearms. Not nuclear weapons so please don't bring that in......

South Africa was once a gleaming jewel of western civilization in the screw up we call Africa. Since the ideas of Marxism and Socialism have infested South Africa it has collapsed on itself.... the restriction of arms is one such sign of Socialism and Marxism and as such the crime rate is climbing like hungry ants into the cookie jar.

My life is not dependent on the State. I can defend myself from evil..... can you?

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Clearly as shown by a previous statement, South Africa is in need of some major changes in the first place... I wouldn't be worried about gun laws... There are bigger fish to fry.

Its because of the restrictive gun laws that crime is and has been going through the roof since it was enacted.

Criminal are not dumb, they think twice about murder, robbery, house breaking etc IF they think their victims could be armed. Criminal do not like victims that can fight back.

Not only are the gun laws a piece of crap, the whole justice system and the cops themselves need a massive shake up. How many cops are recruited around the world that are illiterate? Thanks to Affrimative Action over 50% of South African cops are. Thats no exageration.

I stated recently, my wife and I were witness's for the prosecution a couple months ago for a murder that was committed 11 years ago, DESPITE the fact the cops had all manner of evidence from me and my wife.

There is a direct link between excessive gun control and crime, there's plenty of evidence around the world that supports this fact.

In addition to 5.56's post, this was released by OSAC



https://www. osac.gov/ Reports/report. cfm?contentID= 99642

South Africa 2009 Crime & Safety Report
Crime & Safety

Sub-Saharan Africa - South Africa
28 Jan 2009
Overall Crime and Safety Situation

Current specific crime threats in South Africa are primarily vehicle thefts, personal robberies and residential thefts. The Department of State rates Pretoria, Johannesburg, Durban and Cape Town as "Critical" for crime. American citizens who become victims of crime in South Africa are not specifically targeted due to citizenship, but are targeted because they present themselves as an easy target for criminal elements. The prospect of quick, easy money is the motive for most of the burglaries, robberies, muggings, and carjackings committed in South Africa. Any person, regardless of ethnicity or socio-economic status, especially a person who displays any outward signs of affluence, is susceptible to become a victim of crime in South Africa.

The South African Police Service (SAPS) recently released its 2008, semi-annual national crime statistics. These statistics indicate a 42 percent increase in business robberies over the last reporting period of 2007. A very real concern for both South Africans and unsuspecting visitors alike is to be present during, or come upon a crime in progress. Innocent bystanders become victims, as robbers see patrons as an added source of
income. Restaurants, jewelry shops, grocery stores and other business establishments are prime targets of South Africa's armed robbers. Apart from raiding the business or store, take-over style robberies allow robbers to relieve customers of cash, cell phones and other valuables. Any resistance can result in physical harm, or in the most extreme cases, murder. Armed robbers have demonstrated their willingness to use lethal force without hesitation or provocation. Criminals have no fear of South African law enforcement or the judicial system.

The gratuitous violence associated with many robberies affects all South Africans, including the business community. Though crime is not unique to this country, what sets South Africa apart from other nations is the level of violence associated with crime. Globally, South Africa is ranked fourth for robbery, second for murder, and number one for rape per capita.

SAPS statistics indicate there are 51 murders per day in South Africa. In addition, there are a staggering 100 rapes a day (a number which is most likely under-reported) which indicates a marked decrease since the last reporting period. As an aggravating factor, the HIV/AIDS infection rate of the local population is estimated to be 18 to 22 percent.

Additional crime concerns facing the populace and visitors include home-invasion robbery, burglary, carjacking (often violent), and street mugging (frequently with knives, but increasingly with handguns). Travelers should always be aware of their surroundings and avoid traveling on foot at night. Smash-and-grab robberies are a common occurrence at major intersections and highway off-ramps. No valuables should be left in plain sight in any vehicle. Drivers must always be alert as to who is approaching their vehicle - whether it is at an intersection, shopping mall, grocery store parking lot or home.

Pick-pocketing is common and travelers should safeguard their passport, wallet and other valuables and know where these possessions are at all times.

Country-wide, SAPS statistics show there is an average of 39 carjacking incidents per day in South Africa. Close to half of these incidents occur in the Gauteng Province, which includes Johannesburg and Pretoria. In addition to carjacking incidents, an average of 219 vehicles are stolen every day. Motorists should be on the lookout for suspicious vehicles and activity especially in the vicinity of their residence. Eighty-five percent of all carjacking incidents in South Africa occur as the victim arrives at home and pulls into the driveway. Usually the carjacker(s) will pull up behind the victim in order to block an escape path as the victim enters the driveway. The carjacker will either deploy from the getaway vehicle or lie in wait in
foliage or a dark area. This gives the attacker the element of surprise and enables him quickly to take control of the situation. In the worst case scenario, robbers force the victim into the house, rob the house of its valuables, and drive away with the loot. Victims who resist or fail to comply with demands may be killed or seriously injured.

Given the high rate of burglaries and violent crime, a primary concern for most Americans is residential security. Police response to calls for assistance is slow (and sometimes nonexistent) . Reliance upon private security firms to provide armed response and guard services is the norm, as are security lighting, burglar bars, non-electric and electric fencing, and alarm systems.

Recently, criminals have employed new tactics in order to increase profitability during a residential robbery. Instead of burglarizing houses when the occupants are away, a recent trend is to rob a house when people are at home. This tactic has a two-fold result: 1) The robbers can force the victim to identify where valuables are located; and 2) criminals can gain access to a residence without tripping the alarm, thereby avoiding detection by police and private security, giving them free reign
to focus on making their crime as profitable as possible.

Travelers should also be aware of cash-in-transit vehicle heists. Armored cars are targeted, usually by several armed bandits who employ overwhelming firepower. These robbers routinely fire their weapons in order to achieve their objective. Armored cars should be avoided, especially when they are making deposits or picking up cash receipts.

ATM scams and credit card fraud are prevalent throughout South Africa. Do not accept assistance from "helpful citizens." Never provide anyone with your PIN and do not allow anyone physically to handle your ATM card. Adept ATM scammers can clone your card with a quick swipe of a card reader which is held in their palm, or exchange your card with a bogus one in a matter of seconds.

Travelers should try to avoid using ATM machines after bank business hours. ATM scammers also employ card capture devices in order to steal your ATM card. This can be done with a false front ATM, x-ray film trap or an altered card reader. When the cardholder/victim leaves the ATM minus the card, criminals later return and help themselves to your cash and the card. When giving your credit card to a store or restaurant employee for
processing, do not let him or her take the card out of your sight.

In addition, travelers should avoid using ATMs in dark, remote areas. Criminals frequently target ATMs using commercial explosives to gain access to cash. ATM bombings normally occur in remote areas, in the early hours of the morning. In 2008, it is reported there were 423 ATM bombings in South Africa.

There has been an increase of so-called "419 scams" originating in South Africa. A 419 scam is an advance fee fraud scheme where the victim is requested to provide advance money in order to pay up-front costs associated with receiving a substantial monetary windfall. This type of scam can also be initiated under the guise of a seemingly legitimate business proposition. Bogus websites are set up on the internet in order to dupe the victim who is seeking a specific business opportunity. Based on
the information contained on the bogus website, the victim then contacts the scammer and agrees to travel to South Africa in order to negotiate a business deal. The trap is sprung when the victim arrives in the country. Upon arrival, the unwitting victim can be kidnapped for ransom or coerced to drain funds until he has no more. If you fall victim to this type of scam,
SAPS will not pursue the case to prosecution unless you are willing to file a formal complaint and testify in open South Africa court. For more information on these types of scams, please go to the SAPS website at: http://www.saps. gov.za and search 419 scams.

If you have received such a solicitation, please visit the Federal Bureau of Investigation' s website before providing any personal/financial details or making a financial commitment at:
http://www.fbi. gov/majcases/ fraud/fraudschem es.htm.

Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

There is a direct link between excessive gun control and crime, there's plenty of evidence around the world that supports this fact.

Bingo. We have a winner. Survey says "excessive"! Yes!


There's a fine line between good gun control, and gun control that will affect the general population in a negative manner. The problem is, half the people on here are such extremists when it comes to their guns, they don't realize it.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Bingo. We have a winner. Survey says "excessive"! Yes!


There's a fine line between good gun control, and gun control that will affect the general population in a negative manner. The problem is, half the people on here are such extremists when it comes to their guns, they don't realize it.

There's only one form of good gun control, thats "hitting your target."

Guess which half YOU fall under.