SHERMAN EDIT: This was split from the German Tanks discussion. The topic was brought up by Whispering Death, and this is the first post that was made in respons.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

What's the armor like on a Leopard 2?

By the way, I don't get this facination with the Merkava 4, it seems like an M1A2 or Challenger 2 would thoroughly destroy a Merkava due to the disparity in armor.

What disparity in armor? The Merkava Mk 4 is as armored if not more so then those tanks. It has more or less equal frontal armor with very good flank armor. The Merkava Mk 4 is also incredibly survivable in case of penetration.

Seeing first and shooting first is more important in any warfare then armor. Something the Merkava is as good as any other tank.

What is its armor, the greatest armor man has ever developed?

The thing weighs 10 tons less than an abrams, is 20 mph faster than an abrams, and has more stuff tucked into it like a troop carrying area and mortar. That tells me that they slapped in all those features at the expense of armor weight. It seems like it can hold up against RPGs and landmines (weapons of the PLO) but wouldn't do very well against other modern tanks like the Abrams or Challenger 2.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

What is its armor, the greatest armor man has ever developed?

The thing weighs 10 tons less than an abrams, is 20 mph faster than an abrams, and has more stuff tucked into it like a troop carrying area and mortar. That tells me that they slapped in all those features at the expense of armor weight. It seems like it can hold up against RPGs and landmines (weapons of the PLO) but wouldn't do very well against other modern tanks like the Abrams or Challenger 2.

What in God's name are you talking about? The Merkava Mk 3 and 4 weigh 63 and 65 tons respectively. The heaviest version of the M1 weighs 69. Both their maximum speeds are around 40 mph. Troops are carried in expense for ammo, there is no extra space meant for troopers. The 60mm mortar barely takes up any room at all, you could fit one into any tank easily. The Merkava Mk 3 has armor estimates at 800mm KE and 1600mm CE on turret front, 750mm KE and 1350mm for the glacis, and 650mm KE and 1100mm lower hull. The Mk 4 should be even higher.

Even then, warfare is an offensive game. The Merkava is just as offensive capable as any other tank and very wel equipped to kill it.

The info. I was reading said the Merkava could to 60 with a diesal engine, which tells me it is doing so at the expense of armor.

Interesting estimations but what kind of armor does it have? Not Chogum.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Interesting estimations but what kind of armor does it have? Not Chogum.

That's chobham.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...erkavaMk4.html

Here's some info for you to chew on.

My personal opinion is that between the top 5 tanks there's little to differentiate...it all comes down to politics, price, and other terms of the deal (home production, etc...)

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

The info. I was reading said the Merkava could to 60 with a diesal engine, which tells me it is doing so at the expense of armor.

Interesting estimations but what kind of armor does it have? Not Chogum.

60 KILOMETERS per hour, not 60 miles per hour.

No it doesn't have Chobham, but that's only one form of composite armor. The Leclerc, Leopard, and Merkava don't use "Chobham" but their own home grown composite armor, probably similar to Chobham. With this they all achieve a comparable level of protection.

Originally Posted by Kozzy Mozzy

60 KILOMETERS per hour, not 60 miles per hour.

No it doesn't have Chobham, but that's only one form of composite armor. The Leclerc, Leopard, and Merkava don't use "Chobham" but their own home grown composite armor, probably similar to Chobham. With this they all achieve a comparable level of protection.

60 kph? (I just got owned )

Do you know any tests I can look at for these new composite armors? We know chobham works because we've seen ordainence bounce off of it. Do we know these other type's work?

The armor on the Merkava is combat proven. It has seen hits from T-55s, T-62s, T-72s, RPGs, AT-3s, and numerous other weaponry. The Merkava Mk 1 and 2 proved themselves in the 82 war very well.

The armor on the Leclerc and Leopard is most likely their own home grown Chobham, basically ceramics and steel with other high strength materials. It's obviously passed tests because its in service, so it probably does work.

Originally Posted by Kozzy Mozzy

T-55s, T-62s, T-72s, RPGs, AT-3s,

Those are all early 80s (i.e. outdated) weapons, that is the low bar for a modern MBT. In my book your armor had better be better than that if you're going to put it on the same level as an Abrams or Challenger 2.

What weapons do you think the Abrams proved itself against? The Abrams built it's mainly destroying the Iraqi army(twice). That Army was armed with exactly those weapons.

The extra features were not "slapped in" they have very certain purposes. The troop carrying abilety is only for use in emergencys or very special cases. the mortar was added so the tank can better defend itself against infantry. The Merkava was never built to fight against insurgents, it was built to defeat the Syrian and Egyptian armored forces.