specnaz

So you're contesting valid sources with "i dont believe them" and "thats not true!!!11"? :lol:

Yes Specnaz brought tanks and IFVs, independent investigation provided proof of heavy weapons fire and yes tanks did fire at the school:

http://www.siberianlight.net/fsb-tanks-fired-on-beslan-school/

Or did you not know that Specnaz has tanks under its command and that even counter-terrorists use regular military assets?

More sources about tanks firing into the school:

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/beslan_siege.html

Ministry troops were also engaged, as were helicopter gunships (including Mi-24 Hinds and Mi-8 Hips) and at least one tank (most probably two T-72s and one either T-80 or T-90) as well as several BTR armoured personnel carriers. Many local civilians also joined in the battle, having brought along their own weapons. Afterwards, the Russian government defended the use of tanks and other heavy weaponry, arguing that it was used after surviving hostages escaped from the school.

You still have only empty claims as opposed to my sources, can you or can you not prove any of your wild claims with anything else but your own opinion?

http://www.pravdabeslana.ru/shmel.htm

Flamethrowers used by FSB troops (the most elite troops in the Russian army) against the school.

Up until "Novaya Gazeta" passed the discovered flame throwers to the parliamentary commission on investigation of the terrorist act in Beslan, the Office of Public Prosecutor insisted that flame throwers were not used. Then the Prosecutor has admitted that they were used but declared that the school did not burn down because of them. They are trying to convince us that flame throwers kill only terrorists, not hostages.


Are you going to ridicule those too or are you finally going to back up your made up stories with anything more tangible then wiki which you likely edit yourself?

So KJ are you still defending the skillfull way Specnaz fried and shot the hostages or are those sources also wrong because you think they are?
 
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I asked my grandfather about the Beslan thing [He is into that kind of stuff], and he told me that the majority of hostages died from the collapsing roof, which collapsed due to the explosions by the Terrorist explosives in the gymnasium and the fire started from it.

I doubt that if the entier celieing of a gymnasium collapsed onto the hostages that even other Special Forces like the GiGN, Seal Team Six or SAS would have done better.
 
I asked my grandfather about the Beslan thing [He is into that kind of stuff], and he told me that the majority of hostages died from the collapsing roof, which collapsed due to the explosions by the Terrorist explosives in the gymnasium and the fire started from it.
I asked my fairy godmother and she told me that most of the hostages died from the pink elephants.

There should be a rule that keeps up professionalism of this forum and people like you would be banned on the basis of sheer idiocy you produce no wonder 90% of people who're seriously into military topics dont frequent the place, statements like "my grandpa told me" drag the whole topic down to kindgergarden bullsh*t level.

Real sources however claim that the majority of hostages were shot by automatic grenade launchers, heavy machineguns, autocannons and fried with flamethrowers by the incompetent Specnaz storm of the place.

A large number of people suffocated or fried in the fire caused by Specnaz' barrage of fire, the roof collapsed as a result of said fire and it too was directly a result of the incompetently carried out storming.

If you even bothered to read sources from Russia itself that i provided instead of posting this utter crap that amounts to your opinion you'd find out terrorists did not set of any explosives, more then 90% of the victims were shot by the "highly competent" alpha.

Btw got any real sources or is it only your 'grandfather'?
 
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This is the reason that this forum is so empty.

I came to learn something and to ask questions, but instead when I say something that a person disagrees with I get **** for it. I can see I am not the only person to get this, apparently some Rob henderson dude got it well because he was upsetting your right wing asses.

I am astounded that people like you on this forum are allowed. You are obviously totally anti-Russian and I doubt you have a single good thing to say about anything related to Russia.

And actually, from reading that page in Wikipedia that you yourself have provided it also has the same fricking theory that my grandpa told me; The ceiling of the gymnasium collapsed onto the hostages and killed the majority of them.

I doubt you managed to see that due to your obvious beleif of how inferior Russians are to you, and all you want to do is prove that they are nothing than dirty barbarians.

Pretty much everything I have seen from this forum is racism, discrimination and most of all arrogance. Hell even a moderator does it.

I doubt anybody will care, but due to the extravagant amounts of bullcrap I have seen on this forum I will not bother visiting anymore, this forum is pretty much comparable to Stormfront when it comes to racism and discrimination.
 
I am astounded that people like you on this forum are allowed. You are obviously totally anti-Russian and I doubt you have a single good thing to say about anything related to Russia.
You're making an idiot out of yourself, in the vehicles section i've been repeatedly defending Russia against various misconceptions as to them being a bunch of guys running around with spears, which doesnt change the face that their military is a long way away from being an effective fighting force.
And actually, from reading that page in Wikipedia that you yourself have provided it also has the same fricking theory that my grandpa told me; The ceiling of the gymnasium collapsed onto the hostages and killed the majority of them.
But you failed to read all the other sources i provided which basically state that your elite Specnaz botched both actions causing deaths of 400+ civilians by, among others firing tanks into the building, gassing people, shooting flamethrowers at running children et cetera?

Selective eye sight?
I doubt you managed to see that due to your obvious beleif of how inferior Russians are to you, and all you want to do is prove that they are nothing than dirty barbarians.
Oh Russian military is most definitely dirty (they have serious hygiene problems which have been source to a debate by Colonel Irina Marusza last year) and they're most definitely barbaric, the amount of suicides annualy exceeds 2000.

They're however capable of putting up a fight but as an army are still incomparably lower then any central or western European military, they're strong but that strength is limited to numbers.
Pretty much everything I have seen from this forum is racism, discrimination and most of all arrogance. Hell even a moderator does it.
No idea, there's some mods i like some i dont but i never seen one do racism so that would be a new one.
I doubt anybody will care, but due to the extravagant amounts of bullcrap I have seen on this forum I will not bother visiting anymore, this forum is pretty much comparable to Stormfront when it comes to racism and discrimination.
Could you please point out which bit of my posts were racist? I put forth the claim of Russian military being extremely incompetent, undertrained and underfunded, i've provided loads of valid sources that back up my claim and instead all i got was KJ trying to laugh it off and you pulling out "my grandpa told me".

Heck i even got you pictures! I can post about 600 more since i've got a huge folder specially for Georgia but i guess we cant argue with KJs opinion and your grandfather...
 
Vympel,s mission has shifted since you got your facts.
Overall that was quite an accurate post Supostat.
Yes, I must admit that info could be outdated a little, since it regarded Soviet era. After collapse of USSR the things changed, for example I have heard the `Vympel` was even dismissed in early 90-ies. Besides, I guess the current state and system of Russian SF is kind of secret info and isn't spread as widely as historic info on Soviet era.
Panzercracker said:
Since you're so well informed, do you know whats the price of a loaf of bread in Moscow?
Most cheap one - 0,46$ @ 2007.
Panzercracker said:
Invasion of Georgia:

soldierstank789453c.jpg
So, where's a problem? Soldiers are wearing 90-ies issue `Gorizontalka` camo uniforms, armed with up-to date AK-74 assault rifles... ok, their camo is quite used and they have outdated and certainly uncomfortable footwear, as well I do not see any ammunition on them, but how does it show their low skill level?

Besides, they seem to a conscripted regular armored infantry unit, not professional airborne or SF infantry.
Panzercracker said:
More:

russian20soldiers20bloc.jpg


Several points of interest here, note that instead of relatively modern T-80s or T-90s they use old T-64s even without ERA, note the AK-47 carried by a soldier on the left of the PKM gunner.
At first, those are not T-64, but even older T-62 or T-54/55 (my guess is T-62, because of shape of turret and main gun). What come to these tanks, their still are good enough against infantry, and I haven't heard anything regarding tank battles in the combat actions in Georgia.

At second, I'm not sure about AK-47 in hands soldier you claimed. Resolution of pic is too low, only end of barrel and buttstock could be seen. The rifle could be AK-74 or AKM as well. So, the AK-47 is only your guess.
Panzercracker said:
No they can not, facilities cost a fortune to build and maintain, fuel is never cheap when you have hundreds of thousands of troops to get from point A to point B annualy.
What such facilities is needed for tactical training? Name a few, please.

What comes to fuel - Russians have a lot of territory, they can afford to have a training fields near any their army base, so there is no need for great consumption of fuel for routine training. And I am sure they have enough fuel for larger annual exercises where larger forces are involved.
And since you seem to be a fan of images and i too believe they speak louder then words.

russiansoldiers405.jpg


This picture is fun, a mechanized unit in Georgia, these guys wear "Ushanka" hats that are about 40 years old and have no protective uniforms, in case there's a fire they're going to be living torches also note the cool diving goggles (no they're not standard issue) with a custom rubber strap on the driver!
Again, where is the problem?

1) Your referance to `Ushanka` is wrong. Ushanka is this one:
colbacco.JPG


2) Ok, Russian tank crew helmet is visually outdated, so what? It still works fine, providing crew member both head protection and communication (it has headphone and laringophone installed).

3) Protective eyewear is issue in Russian army, but again, does lack of it mean that Russian army in unprofessional and incapable of fulfilling their tasks?
KJ said:
Flamethrowers..Hahaha[/quote
Actually, there were found few used tubes on the roof (or balcony) of one of the surrounding building, however remains unclear who and why fired them. Russian forces deny being involved.
 
Yes, I must admit that info could be outdated a little, since it regarded Soviet era. After collapse of USSR the things changed, for example I have heard the `Vympel` was even dismissed in early 90-ies. Besides, I guess the current state and system of Russian SF is kind of secret info and isn't spread as widely as historic info on Soviet era.
Your info is completely inaccurate, being wrong is different then being outdated.
Most cheap one - 0,46$ @ 2007.
Average price 0.80$ USD @ 2010.

30 loafs of white bread cost 24$USD or approximately 1/20th of the monthly pay of a professional russian soldier.
So, where's a problem? Soldiers are wearing 90-ies issue `Gorizontalka` camo uniforms, armed with up-to date AK-74 assault rifles...
I'm sorry, the one on the right is totting an AK-47 not 74 and thats not taking into account that AK-74 is not a modern rifle either.

None of the uniforms on the third picture is a 'Gorizontalka' since they're bi-patterned on a basic green which means the guys sitting on the tank have uniforms over 30 years old since Flora and Gorizontalka were intruduced in the early 90s.
ok, their camo is quite used and they have outdated and certainly uncomfortable footwear, as well I do not see any ammunition on them, but how does it show their low skill level?
The footwear is ancient, they're some sort of predecessor of Zubr or Kirza, probably around early 80s, again around a quarter century old.
Besides, they seem to a conscripted regular armored infantry unit, not professional airborne or SF infantry.
Doesnt matter i can find pics of Specnaz with just as outdated gear, the problem is army wide not restricted to conscripted forces.
At first, those are not T-64, but even older T-62 or T-54/55 (my guess is T-62, because of shape of turret and main gun). What come to these tanks, their still are good enough against infantry, and I haven't heard anything regarding tank battles in the combat actions in Georgia.
If you want to play nitpicking, the tank on the right is a T-64, the tank on the left is a T-55A, the tank in the back is also a T-55.

The excuse that they're good against infantry is ridiculous, they can be killed from far beyond their own effective range even by many outdated AT infantry assets, the fact that Russia issues such junk for the first line speaks volumes about their military capacity.

As for why didnt you hear anything about tank actions in Georgia is because Georgians fearing complete annexation simply withdrew.
At second, I'm not sure about AK-47 in hands soldier you claimed. Resolution of pic is too low, only end of barrel and buttstock could be seen. The rifle could be AK-74 or AKM as well. So, the AK-47 is only your guess.
If you say so, lets do this differently, tell me how many pictures of regular soldiers wielding AK-47s would you like me to post and of which branches, Specnaz? Airborne? Marines?
What such facilities is needed for tactical training? Name a few, please.

Mock cities, woodland polygons, transportation and living facilities, buildings for schooling, computer software, ammenities expanded while training (training munitions, electricity, food etc), bunkers and terrain adaptation.

What comes to fuel - Russians have a lot of territory, they can afford to have a training fields near any their army base,
No they cant, a simple example is if a unit is station in some arse end of nowhere and needs to train urban combat.
so there is no need for great consumption of fuel for routine training. And I am sure they have enough fuel for larger annual exercises where larger forces are involved.
Yes there is, Russian rail network is extremely underdeveloped, even here in Poland where we have 20xrailway Russians have when we have excersizes we need to drive often enough and you apparently have no idea how much fuel tanks and IFVs burn, as for their large excersizes? In another post Nero masturbated over how Russians and Belarussians put together 25k men between the two countries, thats as large as it gets for an army of over a milion men.


1) Your referance to `Ushanka` is wrong. Ushanka is this one:
colbacco.JPG
I'm sorry i'm a slave to old nicknames, we stopped using this junk in Poland in the early 90s but the nicknames stick.
2) Ok, Russian tank crew helmet is visually outdated, so what? It still works fine, providing crew member both head protection and communication (it has headphone and laringophone installed).
No it does not work fine, while again we dont use it in our army for over 15 years its still in strategic reserves, it provides no protection whatsoever and the inbulit headphone had a nickname "smackit" since you had to bump it against the wall of the vehicle to get rid of the static and if you were lucky it worked.
3) Protective eyewear is issue in Russian army, but again, does lack of it mean that Russian army in unprofessional and incapable of fulfilling their tasks?
Yes, failiure to provide most basic pieces of equipment critical to the safety of the crew shows an extreme level of unpofessionality on the part of the logistics and the fact that you're driving a 40 year old tank and shooting a rifle which has the accuracy of a drunk irishman makes you pretty incapable of doing your work.

Actually, there were found few used tubes on the roof (or balcony) of one of the surrounding building, however remains unclear who and why fired them. Russian forces deny being involved.
Actually dozens of people have been fried by flametrhrowers and there have been witnesses who commented that Specnaz BTRs shot flames at running people.

In one of the links i gave you Russian goverment officials admit openly to using them so please stop making stuff up, its very clear who and why shot them, FSB troops did and they used them because they completely lacked training to deal with the situation
 
Ah yes, the Spetsnaz, able to backflip over barbed wire and toss an hatchet at a specific part of their foes bodies and hit.

And you thought the space marine from Doom was badass.

But they are about as tactically capable as a bunch of untrained apes. They are too reliant on individual skill.
 
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Tanks fiered at the school.
Tanks from the 58:th Army.
Neither Alfa nor Vympel brought any tanks.
The "flamethrowers" you refer to (RPO-A Shmel rockets) are only classified as such in russia.
In the western world they are classified as thermobaric weapons.
Also used were a few RPG-26,s to knock holes in the walls.

"A chaotic battle broke out as the special forces fought to enter the school. The assault forces included the assault groups of the FSB OSNAZ and the associated troops of the Russian Army and the Russian Interior Ministry, supported by a number of tanks from Russia's 58th Army (commandered by Tikhonov from the military already on September 2), BTR-80 wheeled armoured personnel carriers and armed helicopters, including at least one Mi-24 attack helicopter.[89]"
"
The use of tanks and armoured personnel carriers was eventually admitted by Lieutenant General Viktor Sobolev, commander of the 58th Army"

"During the battle, a group of some 13 insurgents broke through the military cordon and took refuge nearby. Several of them were believed to have entered a nearby two-story building, which was destroyed by tanks and flamethrowers around 21:00,"

They broke through the cordon force of 58:th Army units, were persued and defeated outside the school with 58:th Army Tanks and "flamethrowers" (Shmel rockets).

Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/beslan#Beginning_of_the_siege

In this article it clearly states that Alfa and Vympel squads were still discussing access routes and breach points.
Many operators had to be thrown into the attack without their body armour on since the cordon force (58:th Army) had started fiering.

Source:
Reuters input: By Tom Miles

Command Failure Seen at Fault in Beslan Massacre
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Security forces bungled the handling of Russia's worst hostage drama because nobody was in charge and special forces were not ready when the shooting started, security analysts said on Monday.

"It's clear that it was a total mess," leading military analyst Alexander Golts told Reuters. "They were not prepared."

As the death toll from the battle that ended the siege in the North Ossetian town of Beslan rose above 330, Russia's media asked how the vaunted special forces had allowed a two-day standoff to turn into a bloodbath.

Authorities said they were forced to storm the school when the militants fired on hostages who were fleeing in the confusion following two explosions. With no security cordon to keep them back, armed local people pressed forward and were among the first to return fire.

Local troops -- unprepared and possibly short of ammunition -- suddenly found themselves assaulting the school, while special forces moved in only half an hour after the battle began, Golts said.

The newspaper Vremya Novostei said that when the fighting started, two special forces squads from the FSB security service were still discussing assault plans and had not even agreed on approach routes or where the defenders' firing points were.

It said the two squads, Alfa and Vympel -- equivalent to Britain's Special Air Service or the U.S. Delta Force -- suffered unprecedented casualties totaling 10 dead and up to 31 wounded.

Security expert Andrei Soldatov said on Ekho Moskvy radio that the battle began so suddenly that many of the special forces fought without bullet-proof vests.

But local troops were also too close to the school, keen to show the media the scene and avoid the accusations of a cover-up that plagued the Russian government in a previous hostage crisis, the capture of a Moscow theater in 2002, he said.

The disastrous handling of the siege earned a rebuke for the security forces from President Vladimir Putin, himself a former agent in the KGB, the FSB's Soviet forerunner.

"We have to admit we showed no understanding of the danger of processes occurring in our own country and in the world at large," he said in a televised address on Saturday. "We failed to react appropriately to them and, instead, showed weakness."

SPECIAL FORCES NOT PREPARED

But Golts said he believed that remarks by Putin earlier in the siege might have added to the confusion.

"It's totally my theory, but as far as I understand, when Putin said the school would not be stormed, the special forces stood down and were not prepared for a crucial change in the situation."

Western analysts said a key weakness was the lack of coordination between police, army, paramilitary and special forces each controlled by different ministries or the FSB.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...p;pageNumber=1



Project whitehorse that train SWAT Teams in the US has this to say in their "lessons learned":
http://www.projectwhitehorse.com/pdfs/2.%20Our%20Worst.pdf


I especially encourage you to read that last PDF.
It might open your eyes a bit.

From your source: "
And in the case of the terrorist act in Beslan, the examinations, which should establish a cause and effect relationship between the usage of tanks by the 58-th army and the death of hostages, will be lead by experts of the 58-th army."

That rather confirms MY point...

Your source goes on to say: "During the survey of the place of incident (school), the following terrorist weapons were discovered: 20 automatic devices and 5 Kalashnikov machine guns, 2 manual anti-tank grenade guns, 5 manual flame throwers "Shmel"."

Alfa and Vympel can´t really be held accountable for what the terrorists bring into the school, now can they?

http://www.pravdabeslana.ru/shmel.htm

And that was apart from the IED,s hanging all over the place..:
"Military sappers have removed 127 improvised explosive devices from the Beslan school that was the center of the recent hostage drama in North Ossetia, RIA-Novosti reported on 9 September, citing Defense Minister Ivanov. Ivanov also denied a recent statement by Health and Social Development Minister Zurabov that some hostages died during the storming of the school because adequate medical equipment was not available. Ivanov said no one died because of delayed medical assistance.
Source: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-121845140.html

Have a very nice day.
//KJ.
 
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@KJ

1. There was NO IEDs hanging "all over the place" there was a bunch of small explosives.

2. If you did read (and you did not) what i posted you'd see Russian govt admitting to use of flamethrowers, not thermobaric weapons.

3. They also admitted to using tanks and choppers.

4. Specnaz and Vympel were in command, it was their tactical' failiure that led to breakdown of communication.

Bottom line, Russian special forces are subpar when compared to the worlds finest, they managed to royally f*ck up 2 major actions in one decade.

Of course if you want we can start discussing how heroic Specnaz got its arse served during the Russian tank assault on Grozny, thats pretty fun as well.
 
@KJ

1. There was NO IEDs hanging "all over the place" there was a bunch of small explosives.

2. If you did read (and you did not) what i posted you'd see Russian govt admitting to use of flamethrowers, not thermobaric weapons.

3. They also admitted to using tanks and choppers.

4. Specnaz and Vympel were in command, it was their tactical' failiure that led to breakdown of communication.

Bottom line, Russian special forces are subpar when compared to the worlds finest, they managed to royally f*ck up 2 major actions in one decade.

Of course if you want we can start discussing how heroic Specnaz got its arse served during the Russian tank assault on Grozny, thats pretty fun as well.

1. Yes there were, I have provided an open source link..You did not.
2. I said they used both kinds of Shmel, not at the school though. And not by the Teams.
3. Yes, 58:th Army did, under their own command. (Hinds were used to deploy troops, late arriving Alfa Team.)
4. Negative, Vympel did not have overall command of this situation, and Alfa were thrown into the fight as it progressed.
5. Sure they are. They don´t compare **** all to SFOD-D as they don´t compare to the origin of CT units (twentytwo) but that was not what we discussed.

As you have been stearing this subject away from the points I made from the start about Storm 333 and the Lebanon OP,s all along and now when proven wrong on these ops you direct attention towards another you will eventually hit one they DID **** up.
All CT units will have failiurs as CT and HR/CSAR are inherently dangerous missions that you obviously know nothing about.
(The Desert one incident is ONE good example of an operation going tits up.)
As you have not spoken to any operator nor any survivor you maybe should shut your piehole about **** you don´t know anything about and move out and draw fire?

As far as I am concerned, this topic is closed.

//KJ.
 
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1. Yes there were, I have provided an open source link..You did not.
http://en.sknews.ru/main/965-beslan-facts-and-myths.html

There exist no pictures of IEDs, only a single picture of a would be explosion, beyond the claims by FSB which had every reason to lie given it massacred 200+ children there exist no proof of IEDs, also none in your sources.
2. I said they used both kinds of Shmel, not at the school though. And not by the Teams.
Thats going to be fun, before i produce more sources, do you have any factual basis to your claim or are you talking out of your arse again?
3. Yes, 58:th Army did, under their own command. (Hinds were used to deploy troops, late arriving Alfa Team.)
Hinds were used to shoot at the school re-read the sources or would you like me to re-post?
4. Negative, Vympel did not have overall command of this situation, and Alfa were thrown into the fight as it progressed.
Specnaz was in overall command and we've been discussing the qualities of Specnaz, if you want to discuss how poorly Alfa is trained we can use Dubrovka theatre as an example where it was Alfas call and every single frack up was theirs alone.
5. Sure they are. They don´t compare **** all to SFOD-D as they don´t compare to the origin of CT units (twentytwo) but that was not what we discussed.
Heck no thats exactly the point, Specnaz and its special sub-units are nowhere near whats considered standard for special forces ie they're substandard and all their youtube roundkicks do little to negate the facts that every single operation they openly took part in they messed up.

Btw whats the point you made about Lebanon? I missed it, and i have a heck of a more idea then you buddy given that you make stuff up and link to answers.com :pirate2:
 
I thought you had been in the service?
The answer is obvious, "fill this form 226783 out in triplicate and we will get you 57856-83RB (River of Blood) requisition form to fill out.:wink:

Oh wait, I think that is the wrong form?

Find me the NSN and I'll get back to you. :angel:
 
Bottom line, Russian special forces are subpar when compared to the worlds finest, they managed to royally f*ck up 2 major actions in one decade.
Has any other CT unit of 21st centrury around all the world encountered SUCH situations like Nord-Ost and Beslan and SUCH opfor like chechen rebels/terrorists?
 
Has any other CT unit of 21st centrury around all the world encountered SUCH situations like Nord-Ost and Beslan and SUCH opfor like chechen rebels/terrorists?
Of course, US army regularly, Polish and British armies as well not to mention Israelis.

All of them have an impressive track record, heck even Georgian special forces gave Russians a very bloody nose in one of the few actual engagements of the war.
 
spelling

the correct spelling is spetsnaz,although very tough and used to harsh training , living conditions etc etc the sheer number of them indicates training would be sub standard compared with any NATO special operations unit.thats not to say that former eastern bloc units are incompetent,
polish GROM operators are among the best in the world & conduct special operations alongside us & uk special forces with distinction
 
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I have heard the same thing about GROM. Top notch troops. As for the Russians, they wouldn't inspire any type of special fear in me if I thought we would meet.
 
I have heard the same thing about GROM. Top notch troops. As for the Russians, they wouldn't inspire any type of special fear in me if I thought we would meet.

In 1998 a group from the GRU Spetsnaz participated in a US-led exercise in Alaska. The exercise involved special forces from 8 countries among others Israel. Our SOF operatives rated the Russians on a par with western counterparts.
 
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