specnaz

Forgive me if I misunderstood you, but according to these two sources:

Source 1: Russia has the 5th highest military expenditure of $58.6 Billion USD [As of 2008]

Source 2: Russia has the 3rd highest military expenditure behind China and the United States at $50.0 Billion USD

I might have misunderstood you however, so please tell me if I have.
No you didnt misunderstood me, you just have no idea how military budgets work.

I'll keep it simple, you need to divide any given sum by the amount of forces you have, the kind of equipment they posses, the infrastructure they run.

US total military budget is 680~ billion USD total for just over 1.3 milion troops, Chinese military budget is only 70~ billion USD.

The difference? More then 50% of Chinese hardware is over 30 years old.

Now Russia has over a million troops, a much larger fleet, much more ground equipment to keep then both China and US combined and its budget is 50 billion USD.

This translates to an average Russian unit receiving less then 1/20th funding of an average Western European unit and less then 1/10th of an average central European unit.

To give you a picture, just recently russian navy got boiled eggs for breakfreast which was hailed as a major feeding reform.

Of course there are some units that are better funded but even the elites are well below what the Western world considers as average.
 
As for training though saying anything authoritative is impossible given that Russian spends 3200USD on its most elite troops yearly (by comparison US spends 129.000 USD, Germany 75.000 USD, Poland 42.000USD) then their training is likely severely lacking.

Doing simple math, take out living costs and you get maybe 500USD for bullets which is what? 200 shots a year?
On other hand, the cost of Russian soldier is much lower than cost of Western soldier, in terms of both equipment and wage. For example - as far I know, AK-74M with sling, bayonnet and complect of mags costs ~100$, while similar kit of M-16 costs ten times or even more... And I am not sure, is the Western soldier, equipped with M-16 kit, ten times effective than Russian soldier with cheaper AK-74M kit...

Regarding training - lot of that could be trained without large expenses; I do not see any obstacles to train tactics and hand-to-hand combat while lacking financial resources.

What comes to small arms ammunition - I guess they still have supplies produced during USSR ;)
 
On other hand, the cost of Russian soldier is much lower than cost of Western soldier,
Of course it is! He doesnt shoot, he doesnt learn field tactics, if he's lucky he'll go onto field excersizes once a year, he cant drive or operate most vehicles in his army, he cant administer first aid, yeah he's a cheap bastard.
in terms of both equipment and wage.
Many conscripts do not receive any wage, professionals get between 70$USD and 90$USD, their equipment often remembers early cold war, i can easily dig up 2010 pics with Russian professionals carrying AK-47s without the works.

Regarding training - lot of that could be trained without large expenses; I do not see any obstacles to train tactics and hand-to-hand combat while lacking financial resources.
No it couldnt, transportation, training facilities, ammenities and the lot cost money, yes jogging and hth combat are free but they're hardly the most important thing and even they're lacking.

For example the invasion in Georgia showed that Russian NCOs cant read maps, that marksmanship is horrendously low and tactics non existent so even the cheap stuff is neglected but this is more due to low discipline and military culture then money.
What comes to small arms ammunition - I guess they still have supplies produced during USSR ;)
No they dont, do the math, you have about 200k soldiers doing yearly shootings, how long will the stockpiles last? Not to mention calibers change.
 
Of course it is! He doesnt shoot, he doesnt learn field tactics, if he's lucky he'll go onto field excersizes once a year, he cant drive or operate most vehicles in his army, he cant administer first aid, yeah he's a cheap bastard.
Can I quote this sentence in `Humor` part of Russian military forum? ;)
Many conscripts do not receive any wage, professionals get between 70$USD and 90$USD
130 $ per month for contracted soldier @ 2002. 400...500$ per month for contracted soldier from 2007.
their equipment often remembers early cold war, i can easily dig up 2010 pics with Russian professionals carrying AK-47s without the works.
Yes, please, post some of them.
No it couldnt, transportation, training facilities, ammenities and the lot cost money, yes jogging and hth combat are free but they're hardly the most important thing and even they're lacking.
Tactics could be trained within low costs, what comes to transportation, Russians have cheap fuel, and they have a lot of training grounds.

In general, I can agree in certain elements Russian soldiers are trained worse than their Western colleagues, however the difference is not so high as you are trying to state.

Besides - you forgot about combat bears :lol: ;)
beararmy_sm.jpg
 
Forgive me if I misunderstood you, but according to these two sources:

Source 1: Russia has the 5th highest military expenditure of $58.6 Billion USD [As of 2008]

Source 2: Russia has the 3rd highest military expenditure behind China and the United States at $50.0 Billion USD

I might have misunderstood you however, so please tell me if I have.

dude, Australia's budget is working its way up to thirty billion $$$ and we have, what?
50000 troops?
and russia has 1 million troops, so when you break it down there isn't much of the pie to go around...
even when taking into consideration, the fact that costs would be lower , it isn't hard to tell that the Russian military is under funded, and this isn't exactly a secret. even the Russians admit this...
 
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Of course they are underfunded! And becasue of it they decrease number of troops (for example, former divisions have being reorganized in smaller units such as brigades or even regiments), are not able to provide pilots flight hours necessery to maintain their qualification, and so on and so on.

However, it doesn't mean their army do not train at all or jog instead of tactical exercises.
 
i would have to say that the quality of tactical training does have a lot to do with what you can afford. its like comparing professional sprts clubs and non professional clubs they all train but the professional one will have better routines and methods and will be more up to date techniques.

so in this respect the Russian military must be suffering. it is impossible to say that it wouldnt effect quality of troops if you cant afford proper facilities up to date training modern equipment etc. etc.

it will all effect their quality.
 
Vympel,s mission has shifted since you got your facts.
Overall that was quite an accurate post Supostat.

(Your original one that is.
Since then you have been baited into a humor discussion)


//KJ.
 
Can I quote this sentence in `Humor` part of Russian military forum? ;)
Its ok, your posts are humorous enough as it is, i dont know whether you're a Russian logged under a different flag?
130 $ per month for contracted soldier @ 2002. 400...500$ per month for contracted soldier from 2007.
Since you're so well informed, do you know whats the price of a loaf of bread in Moscow? Also you failed to mention that increases include money in lieu of food rations which translates to as much as 20% less actuall money:http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mo-budget.htm
Yes, please, post some of them.
Invasion of Georgia:

soldierstank789453c.jpg


More:

russian20soldiers20bloc.jpg


Several points of interest here, note that instead of relatively modern T-80s or T-90s they use old T-64s even without ERA, note the AK-47 carried by a soldier on the left of the PKM gunner.
Tactics could be trained within low costs, what comes to transportation, Russians have cheap fuel, and they have a lot of training grounds.
No they can not, facilities cost a fortune to build and maintain, fuel is never cheap when you have hundreds of thousands of troops to get from point A to point B annualy.
In general, I can agree in certain elements Russian soldiers are trained worse than their Western colleagues, however the difference is not so high as you are trying to state.
As the Georgian war showed the difference is massive on virtually every level.

And since you seem to be a fan of images and i too believe they speak louder then words.

russiansoldiers405.jpg


This picture is fun, a mechanized unit in Georgia, these guys wear "Ushanka" hats that are about 40 years old and have no protective uniforms, in case there's a fire they're going to be living torches also note the cool diving goggles (no they're not standard issue) with a custom rubber strap on the driver!
Of course they are underfunded! And becasue of it they decrease number of troops (for example, former divisions have being reorganized in smaller units such as brigades or even regiments), are not able to provide pilots flight hours necessery to maintain their qualification, and so on and so on.
However the general number of troops is not being decreased and thats what matters.
However, it doesn't mean their army do not train at all or jog instead of tactical exercises.
Of course they train, but the amount and quality of training makes a regular russian trooper into a little more then armed militia.
 
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ok guys, I might get involved in to "half row" myself :lol:
When I have served for my Country I have had quite few feelings, that are present today, regarding anything Russian anything. Yeas appearance etc is of some contest, but by no means ever I would discount SpecNaz (awfully generalized name) as for any of they abilities. Yeas, there are better troops for most likely any potential scenario around the world, but Russian SF are not bad or really badly trained. Differently- yes, but still capable (please hold me not to start another row regarding some opps) and very importantly also- financially maybe neglected, but not to the extent of ridiculing here by some here- they have decent force!... regrettably... :lol:
 
Storm 333 and the Lebanon OP (Both Alfa) were every bit as successful (if not more so) as anything the western SF Teams were pulling at that time.

//KJ.
 
Storm 333 and the Lebanon OP (Both Alfa) were every bit as successful (if not more so) as anything the western SF Teams were pulling at that time.

//KJ.

Holy Mauser, batman!

I just read about Storm-333 and I mean DAMN!! That must have been some really tricky skills the Spetsnaz pulled off :santam16:
 
Hey guys just found this pretty cool video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow1m39wP6x8&feature=related

I also suggest checking the makers channel, he has some pretty sweet videos.

When I was watching this, it made me think that the Spetsnaz were the type to hide in the grass then pop out when the enemy wasnt expecting it, or just dropping into the room through air vents after they gassed a place.

Have they ever done something like that? I reckon the air vent thing would be cool haha
 
Hey guys just found this pretty cool video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow1m39wP6x8&feature=related

I also suggest checking the makers channel, he has some pretty sweet videos.

When I was watching this, it made me think that the Spetsnaz were the type to hide in the grass then pop out when the enemy wasnt expecting it, or just dropping into the room through air vents after they gassed a place.

Have they ever done something like that? I reckon the air vent thing would be cool haha
And then the Specnaz gassed an entire theatre of civilians botching the operation horribly and you kids went silent:)
 
And then the Specnaz gassed an entire theatre of civilians botching the operation horribly and you kids went silent:)

Actually, they didn´t botch it.
The entire operation (under Alfa control) went like clockwork.

Check your facts.
//KJ.
 
Actually, they didn´t botch it.
The entire operation (under Alfa control) went like clockwork.

Check your facts.
//KJ.
You do realise 2/3rds of the people inside suffered injuries or died gassed to death? How is it "like clockwork"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

Officially, 39 of the attackers were killed by Russian forces, along with at least 129 and possibly many more of the hostages (including nine foreigners). All but a few[2] of the hostages who died during the siege were killed by the toxic substance pumped into the theatre to subdue the militants

And another example of Specnaz "skill"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

Ultimately, at least 334 hostages were killed, including 186 children;[7][8] hundreds more were injured and many were reported missing.

Specnaz shot autocannons and machineguns INTO the school for example.

Both operations were horribly botched revealing lack of organisation or tactical skill on any level, the problem with you KJ as well as with most fanboys who post here is that you have no knowledge on any level but form opinions, these are mostly bloody idiotic since what else can an ignorant guy produce, i'm sorry but after a page of utter crap on your and some other forumers part it had to be said.
 
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You do realise 2/3rds of the people inside suffered injuries or died gassed to death? How is it "like clockwork"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

Officially, 39 of the attackers were killed by Russian forces, along with at least 129 and possibly many more of the hostages (including nine foreigners). All but a few[2] of the hostages who died during the siege were killed by the toxic substance pumped into the theatre to subdue the militants

And another example of Specnaz "skill"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

Ultimately, at least 334 hostages were killed, including 186 children;[7][8] hundreds more were injured and many were reported missing.

Specnaz shot autocannons and machineguns INTO the school for example.

Both operations were horribly botched revealing lack of organisation or tactical skill on any level, the problem with you KJ as well as with most fanboys who post here is that you have no knowledge on any level but form opinions, these are mostly bloody idiotic since what else can an ignorant guy produce, i'm sorry but after a page of utter crap on your and some other forumers part it had to be said.

You posted the link to the key and still couldn´t open the lock?
The hostages didn´t die during the breach.
The hostages died afterwards as a result to the gas not being identified and as a result of the doctors outside incompetence.
NOT Alfas fault.
The reason why Alfa didn´t disclose the name of the agent used was that they didn´t get clearance from COC.

Alfa,s clearence went like clockwork, outside medicalteams screwed the pooch, but they were not Alfa.

As for Beslan, you got your facts twisted again.
No Spetsnaz unit fiered anything heavier then a carbine at that school.
Cordon forces of local militia/national guard in lack of a better phrase DID and forced Vympel to breach early, Alfa turned up late since they had been running the op dry on some similar buildings a few klicks away..
I have tons of facts on that mission since we have made a simulation of it on several levels.

Try to understand what you are reading instead of getting angry now little man.
Your hate, motivated or not towards the russians have already clouded your judgement in interpeting the facts..
Try to avoid making the same misstake again.

Have a very good day..
//KJ.
 
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You posted the link to the key and still couldn´t open the lock?
The hostages didn´t die during the breach.
The hostages died afterwards as a result to the gas not being identified and as a result of the doctors outside incompetence.
NOT Alfas fault.
The reason why Alfa didn´t disclose the name of the agent used was that they didn´t get clearance from COC.
Not only are you ignorant you're also a liar, please provide sources for those wild claims because for example:
http://www.fact-index.com/m/mo/moscow_theatre_siege.html
The hostages were already unconscious during the breach, some of them dead, the only "action" of Specnaz amounted to executing already unconscious terrorists.

More on how ignorant or outright dishonest your post is.


As for Beslan, you got your facts twisted again.
No Spetsnaz unit fiered anything heavier then a carbine at that school.

You're lying: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5294548.stm

I'm going to find you a complete listing of impact sites, 20mm grenaders, 30mm grenades, anti-armor rifles and PKM SSWs were all shot at the school causing the vast majority of deaths.

"As a result, I came to the conclusion that these home-made explosive devices installed by the rebels did not explode at all. Those were explosive devices delivered from outside," he said, adding that it could have been "shots fired from grenade-launchers".

The earlier North Ossetian investigation concluded that grenade launchers, flamethrowers and tank fire had been used during the storming of the school by Russian security forces

Now can you please provide any sources? Thus far i've managed to back up all my claims with relevant sources while you have been merrily making stuff up.

I'm always upset when some guy enters a civil discussion and creates a fairy tale thinking he can get away with making things up, provide sources or stop humiliating yourself.
 
Not only are you ignorant you're also a liar, please provide sources for those wild claims because for example:
http://www.fact-index.com/m/mo/moscow_theatre_siege.html
The hostages were already unconscious during the breach, some of them dead, the only "action" of Specnaz amounted to executing already unconscious terrorists.

More on how ignorant or outright dishonest your post is.


No, again your source states clearly:
"At least 50 terrorists and 120 hostages (official figures - 33 and 128 respectively) died in the raid or shortly thereafter. The terrorists were shot in the head. Two hostages were shot by terrorists, while the others died through a combination of the fentanyl-based aerosol, lack of food and water, and the lack of adequate medical treatment following the raid."

Infact no one has ever claimed the hostages, except for the two killed by the Terrorists died inside the Theatre.
You still can´t read your own material.


You're lying: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5294548.stm

I'm going to find you a complete listing of impact sites, 20mm grenaders, 30mm grenades, anti-armor rifles and PKM SSWs were all shot at the school causing the vast majority of deaths.

"As a result, I came to the conclusion that these home-made explosive devices installed by the rebels did not explode at all. Those were explosive devices delivered from outside," he said, adding that it could have been "shots fired from grenade-launchers".

The earlier North Ossetian investigation concluded that grenade launchers, flamethrowers and tank fire had been used during the storming of the school by Russian security forces

Now can you please provide any sources? Thus far i've managed to back up all my claims with relevant sources while you have been merrily making stuff up.

I'm always upset when some guy enters a civil discussion and creates a fairy tale thinking he can get away with making things up, provide sources or stop humiliating yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

There ya go dumbass, now stop humiliating yourself.
The grenade launching you refer to are one of two things.
The cordon force opening up fire withy HMG,s (wich they did to protect fleeing hostages) or the Teams blowing holes in the wall to let hostages get out .

The entry begun AFTER the terrorists detonated explosives collapsing a roof.

Tank fire, are you kidding me?
Do you think Alfa and Vympel brought tanks?
You are a rediculous man and needs to shut up and go away.
Flamethrowers..Hahaha.
 
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