About Spanish Civil War Myths
|August 7th, 2005||#1|
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Spanish Civil War Myths info
We always hear the version of the fascist insurrection against the Republic renewed in 1931, and this idea must be clarified. In order to understand this insurrection it is important to revise a few events that took place in the years before the civil war began back in 1936.
Not many history books notice that since the Republic was created five insurrections tried to pull it down. Four of them came from the leftist parties and just one from the right wing. We can see that the Spanish leftist parties had (have?) a strong tendency to insurrections and violence. Mostly all leftist parties and especially the PSOE saw the Republic as the way to reach power and destroy “the burgess political system. The PSOE (the same political party that is governing Spain today) wanted to found a communist Russian style political system in Spain (his leader, Largo Caballero, was called the “Spanish Lennin”, pretty scary)
In 1933 elections were taking place in Spain. The CEDA (right wing political party) won the election with a huge majority but the PSOE and the anarchist did not accept the result of the democratic will of the Spanish electors. They accused the CEDA of being fascists (totally false, actually they strongly criticized Hitler’s & Mussolini’s regime, they always respected legality and their members suffered of assassination from the radical leftist members). In order to destabilize the democratic elected government the PSOE began with his Russian stylized policy of killing the opposition, burning churches and killing the clergy, thousand of monks and nouns were brutally killed. They also incited and gave hope to many secessionist movements in the Basque country and Catalonia. Sweet irony, they accused the CEDA of being fascists and they acted just like criminals. The PSOE also bought weapons, ammunition in order to arm the population and to begin the communist revolution. 30.000 men began the socialist revolution in Asturias and for a few days this Spanish province worked as a communist state. In this period of time many people were killed, Catholic people were persecuted and sometimes killed, hundreds of churches were desecrated and thousands of extremely valuable religious paintings and sculptures were devastated. The Government had to do something and they sent the army (phalanx) to Asturias. The Revolution was suffocated in a few months. The leftist propaganda used this event to accuse the Government of being extremely violent and mean, assassinating peasants and so on.
Of course the army killed many insurgents and thousands of them were sent to jail, but in my opinion this was perfectly legitimated.
All history books say that the war began in 1936, but it is crystal clear that the PSOE began the civil war in 1934 due to their attitude. They were instigating the revolution, giving weapons to the population and sending a revolutionary message.
In 1936 elections took place again, this time the PSOE was not going to loose their opportunity of reaching the power. The propaganda was going to be their weapon. They invented a great lie, they said that the government killed thousands of peasants during the suffocation of the Asturian revolution, but they did not give a single name to none of the victims. The propaganda worked and the Popular Front won the elections. Their revolutionary project began. The CEDA knew what was coming up next.
This is the context where Franco made his insurrection; Franco prevented Spain of becoming another communist “paradise”.
Today the propaganda is still working and it makes the Popular Front as a great defender of the democracy (sic.) Thanks to historians like Pio Moa the truth is coming up again.
“The waves of the ocean arrives before to this mountain than the romans´ arms”
Corocotta, Cantabrian warrior (century I B.C)
|August 7th, 2005||#2|
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Everyone on the forums is familiar with my clear-cut stances on international political issues, and you and I have argued more than once over those.
Anyways my mother comes from a former fascist family, in the sense that her father worked for the Fascist Militia and the whole family was reliably pro-mussolinian (and found themselves easy with being strongly aligned with the US after war ended).
All this just to say that we were raised with a pretty strong simpathy towards Franco and his regime.
All I can say is that what we studied at school was that Franco was a brutal nazi-like repressor and the rest was all chocolate boxes and roses.
On some other "alternative" books though, I saw priests and nuns taken out from their graves and coffins and their bodies/bones exposed on the streets, and George Orwell taught us about what the communists did to the counteparts and even to their allies the anarchists.
"Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it".
|August 8th, 2005||#3|
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My family is divided, one of my grandparents was a fascist, he fought with Franco and after the war he had an important possition in "Falange De las Jons". My other grandpa was a Republican and had to emigrate to Mexico because he could be killed. In the late 60´s he came back due to Franco´s amnesty.
Today is Spain there is a big debate. Some revisionists like Pio Moa (who was an excomunist from the GRAPO terrorist group. He was sent to jail by Franco) are making studies concerning the roll of the PSOE in the explosion of the civil war) Many people is trying to silent him.
|August 10th, 2005||#4|
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Well, my half of my family lived in Spain. During the War for Cuban Independence (Spanish American War). My Great Grand Father fought for the Spanish Army. He went back to Spain after the war with the family. My Grandfather joined Franco's ranks and fought against the communist. After the war, he joined the Spainish Blue Division. An all spanish volunteer unit within the German Army. They fought on the Eastern front in WWII. After the war, we went to Cuba. Mostly becuase he got tired of the cold weather. And well, the rest is history. Castro took over. He feld to the US and joined Bridagada De Asalto 2506. Died on the beaches of Cuba and the rest of my family was put into prison. I was born. And then we came to the US.
|August 10th, 2005||#5|
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Your grandpa must have been a great person, I am sure that he had tons of great histories.
From what part of Spain is your family? I am from a place called Cantabria in northern Spain.
|August 11th, 2005||#6|
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Oviedo, Espana. in the Astuarias region. My Great Grandfather worked in the arms plant of Oviedo for a sort period of time during the 1910s. sadily I never got to meet my grandfather. But my Dad and grandmother says that he was a great man. He feld Cuba and came back to free us. Though he died, we still got out. Mostly due to those that he made friends with in the US. The way he got out was by aircraft. My Grandmother was with the Catholic Cruch. She came to the US through the cruch, and then spoke to those that had connections. We got a call from her saying that a small plane would land in a field. We waited there, the plane came. And we got on and left the island. I really don't remember much. I was young and it was at night. What I do remember is my friends that I miss so very much. That and my family. Mostly on my mother's side. She passed away. So it was just me and my Dad. When we got into the US. We were given US citizenship very quickly. I think it was bcause of my grandfather's connections with the CIA. And ever since then I've considered myself an American. I learned english to the point that I no-longer have a spanish accent. And it's gotten to the point that I am forgetting how to speak spanish. But I consider it a good thing.
|August 11th, 2005||#7|
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That is a very interesting history..., it seems that you had an adventure life. Oviedo is very close to where I live, Santander, about a couple of hours. When did you leave The Habana?
|September 2nd, 2005||#8|
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the asturias massacres did happen, and i am fed up of rightist demons and satanists claiming otherwise, i am alos fed up of these crappy hypocritical revionist histories, which allways arwe either pro Franco people who claimed less people died in the war than actually did, or pro franco people who claim the socialists were as fascist as franco, or peoperl who claim the socialists were all communists and that the psoe, of 1982, if they took over in 1982, were planning to execute as many as stalin, i mean just remember when they tookover and tremem,ber all the people they killed, come on lets face it , gfrabnco was a craop evil perosn, and the catholic church should apologise for supporting him, just as they apologised for the crusades, indeed the spanish civil war killed more people than the crusades, they killed a million, and the war killed a million, the famines and massacres after it killed half a million, P.S ceda appointed franco to crush the asturas miners just after he had helped petain kill thousands of morrocans in morocco. this would be like getting the us armyu which had crushed the islamic fundementalist saudis in fallujah to crush the gate gormet stri9ke in london, in 2005,. ceda were loonies to have done that , and were crackers, it was a classic ruthless dictator act, that stalin or hitler would have boasted of, at least stalin killed hitler, and at least lenin beat the tsar (the tsar killed 500,000 german soldiers in world war one, by concentration camps, and 50,000 Jews),. frabnco just allied to hitler and saw spaion have more deaths than any other West uropean counrty in 1930-50, he was scum, and the fact the psoe did not execute him in 1936 shows ho naive and nice they were, and how franbco executed the socialist leaders, some of which handed over by hitler shows what a demon he is, and why he is butnibng in hell
|September 3rd, 2005||#9|
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Re: this info
Second, sience you "seem" to know something about the Spanish civil war then you might understand some spanish. I recomend you to read any book of Pio Moa. He was a comunist (member of the terrorist group GRAPO) when he was young. He discovered though documents and speeches of Largo Caballero how distorsionated was all the history around the spanish civil war. He was sent to jail by Franco. This same guy is the one that wrote the book.
Please, tell me who said that the PSOE was gonna kill thousands back in 1982, give me a link or something, your words are not enough.
As you said, the war killed a million, not Franco, there were victims in both sides.
Never said that the asturian revolution did not happen. Franco was sent there because he was the youungest and bravest general of all the spanish army. What did you expect the CEDA to do? Allow to create a comunist province in Spain? Are you kidding?
Are you comparing the terrorist atacks last june in london with the Asturian revolution?? Do you know that hundreds of religious people were killed during the revolution? That the mayor cities in Asturias were blew up? That hundred of churhes were desecrated?
The PSOE wanted to create a comunist state in Spain, you just have to read the spechees of Largo Caballero ( called by his fellows the spanish Lennin ). The PSOE was totally controlated by the Komitern. If the PSOE would have won the war Spain would have be another republic of the USSR, in the same situation of the ex-Yugoslavija, Ukrania, Rumania, Bielorrusia......
Thanks god that this did not happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Example of the propaganda during the spanish civil war... See the hammer????
P.S: If you want to continue this discussion post arguments and not bullsh*t please.
|September 3rd, 2005||#10|
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Sorry for the double posting mods, but I wanted to add some interesting info that I forgot.
I will give you a few "jewels" of the leader of the PSOE:
In 1925 Francisco Largo Caballero became leader of the PSOE. He called for "the conquest of political power by the working class by whatever means possible" and the "dictatorship of the proletariat organized as a working-class democracy".
Francisco Largo Caballero, speech in Madrid (March 1936)
The illusion that the proletarian socialist revolution can be achieved by reforming the existing state must be eliminated. There is no course but to destroy its roots. Imperceptibly, the dictatorship of the proletariat or workers' democracy will be converted into a full democracy( ), without classes from which the coercive state will gradually disappear. The instrument of the dictatorship will be the Socialist party, which will exercise this dictatorship during the period of transition from one society to another and as long as the surrounding capitalist states make a strong proletarian state necessary.
Edward Knoblaugh, Correspondent in Spain (1937)
Largo Caballero began to realize the need for immediate drastic action. As president of the U.G.T., he summoned the sub-leaders of this Revolutionary Socialist group and impressed upon them the desperateness of the situation. The result was a round-table conference among the U.G.T., the heads of the Syndicalists National Confederation of Labor (C.N.T.), The Federation of Iberian Anarchists (F.A.I.), The Trotsky Communists (Partido Obrero Unificado Marxists - P.O.U.M.), The Stalin Communists and the Left Republicans. In the first agreement which these divergent factions had been able to reach since the beginning of the war they approved the immediate mobilization of all able-bodied men in Loyalist territory. A decree to this effect was issued. Whether they wanted to join or not, all men between the ages of 20 and 45 were pressed into military service. From this moment on, the Loyalist army ceased to be a voluntary army.
Joseph Stalin became concerned that the Nationalists would defeat the Republicans in Spain. He took the view that four extreme right-wing governments in Europe would pose a serious threat to the security of the Soviet Union. Although Stalin continued to support the idea of the Nonintervention Agreement, he was now willing to supply the necessary military aid to stop a fascist regime being established in Spain.
Stalin encouraged the Comintern to organise the formation of International Brigades. He also sent Alexander Orlov of the NKVD to advise the Popular Front government. Orlov supervised a large-scale guerrilla operation behind Nationalist lines. He later claimed that around 14,000 people had been trained for this work by 1938.
The Soviet Union provided considerable help to the Spanish Communist Party to improve its position in the Popular Front government. This included the removal of the socialist Francisco Largo Caballero as prime minister and replacing him with the communist sympathizer, Juan Negrin.
Alexander Orlov also used NKVD agents to deal with left-wing opponents of the Communists in Republican held areas. This included the arrest and execution of leaders of the Worker's Party (POUM), National Confederation of Trabajo (CNT) and the Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI).
The Soviet Union were the main suppliers of military aid to the Republican Army. This included 1,000 aircraft, 900 tanks, 1,500 artillery pieces, 300 armoured cars, 15,000 machine-guns, 30,000 automatic firearms, 30,000 mortars, 500,000 riles and 30,000 tons of ammunition
Again, thanks god that the comunist didn´t win. Remeber that Stalin is the biggest murderer ever, he killed 40 million russians in his famous Gulag I can imagina what would have happen if they won the war.