Originally Posted by Chukpike

Agreed and exactly what the referee did.
Your questioning the call is what biased fans and sportcasters do after the call. You did not even question that a foul occurred, you just judged it lighter than what was given so the player could play in the final. The referee does not have that luxury.

I judged it lighter because I believed that foul did NOT warrant the penalty given. It just so happens that the penalty also barred the player from the final. If it had been a foul that I didn't believe deserved a yellow card and one was given, I would have been just as upset about that. The point is not that I am basing my decision on the next match, but I am basing my decision on the fact that IN MY OPINION, the foul was not worthy of a red card.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

In short you based your decision as a fan, if you were refereeing the game you could have made a different call, but it would not have been based on whether you wanted the player available for the final match

No, I based my decision as a referee.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

You know this is wrong, the players are fully aware of what could happen in a game. The players are also responsible for their actions.

You honestly think that if he could have known that he would have gotten a red card for that tackle that he still would have made it? HARDLY.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

All of this is perceived notions of what referees do. Basically crap.

Have you been reading the previous posts? We ARE referees... It is not "perceived" at all... It is first hand information.


Chukpike... Why dost thou torment me so with thy constant nagging? Go back to the Political Forums.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Have you been reading the previous posts? We ARE referees... It is not "perceived" at all... It is first hand information.

I have read the posts. And no you are not referees from that game. You drew your conclusions from television. You were not there.

As you stated:
"But the referee needs to think... This card is forcing him out of the final of the FIFA Confederation Cup... Did that challenge deserve that punishment?"

That is a completely invalid excuse to make a call in a game.

And would justify rattlers statement:
"What soccer really needs are fully professional 24/7 refs teams that get paid amounts that come close to the players wages (and where the bad teams get dropped instantly), who are intelligent, psychologically stable and physically as fit as the players, wonder if the clubs/nations ever can agree on that?"

Not amateurs.

Come on, guys.

What about the final against Brazil? Will it be business as usual, or will the US win their first ever FIFA tournament?

Great result for USA in the semis. Now I would like to see them win the final. They have long deserved a place at the top table, if only for the speed of their progress; one good championship would provide the motivation and encouragement they need to recognise how well they compete in such high company. Believe it - do it!

Iam 24 x 7 football freak and a Gunner for life!!!

Any Arsenal FC fans around??.

Has a Spain supporter, i thought they would win easily. Hard to believe that Spain had lost against USA.

Anyway,I support US rather than Brazil. After beating Spain, they can repeat that against the Samba boys.


Cheers to Football,

Originally Posted by indian_sukhoi

Iam 24 x 7 football freak and a Gunner for life!!!

Any Arsenal FC fans around??.

As a Spain supporter, I thought they would win easily. Hard to believe that Spain lost against USA.

Anyway, I support US rather than Brazil. After beating Spain, they can repeat that against the Samba boys.


Cheers to Football,

Originally Posted by Del Boy

-snip- Now I would like to see them win the final. They have long deserved a place at the top table, if only for the speed of their progress; one good championship would provide the motivation and encouragement they need to recognise how well they compete in such high company. Believe it - do it!

Second both, US go!

Brasil so far has ot shown wonders, they are over confident (but dangerous any moment). Still, one can hope...

Rattler

P.S.: And just FDR: I am with Chupike in his last post, a ref should *never* base decisions on the *next match, even if he has to compensate for an error... R.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

I have read the posts. And no you are not referees from that game. You drew your conclusions from television. You were not there.

You need to be more specific then. You didn't make it clear that you were speaking about those particular referees. That's not my fault.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

As you stated:
"But the referee needs to think... This card is forcing him out of the final of the FIFA Confederation Cup... Did that challenge deserve that punishment?"

That is a completely invalid excuse to make a call in a game.

Again, the referee can use his own discretion. You may not think of it as "fair" but some do. Believe it or not, circumstances change referee's calls A LOT. If a foul looks to be more brutal than it is, the referee might wait and see before handing out a card. If a foul seems to be inconsequential to the play (called playing the advantage) then a referee might let a tackle go that he would have called, had the tackler's team gained possession from the tackle.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

And would justify rattlers statement:
"What soccer really needs are fully professional 24/7 refs teams that get paid amounts that come close to the players wages (and where the bad teams get dropped instantly), who are intelligent, psychologically stable and physically as fit as the players, wonder if the clubs/nations ever can agree on that?"

Not amateurs.

Well, seeing as we do have professional referees in large tournament games like these, not "amateurs" like you say.......

Your replies draw me into this again, seems you are changing theme focus all the time...

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

-snip- If a foul looks to be more brutal than it is, the referee might wait and see before handing out a card.

No. A straightforward "No".

Point is that (if no advantage situation) you *must* decide.

Instantly, no waiting. Either you saw it, or not, but nothing inbetween.

Rightly or wrongly, but you *have to* use your whistle, else players do no know what is "fact".

Waiting is a real big NoNo.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

If a foul seems to be inconsequential to the play (called playing the advantage) then a referee might let a tackle go that he would have called, had the tackler's team gained possession from the tackle.

No.

Advantage does not mean the foul does not get sanctioned, just that the ref does not interrupt game flow because it was inconsequential for the current match phase and for the moment for the team that suffered the foul.

You will often see a ref (and *those* are the good ones) signalling "advantage", let the match go on until the next "natural" break (ball out of field, e.g.), and *then*, maybe even a few minutes later, sanction the foul (incl. handing out cards). Colina was the best in this respect.

"Advantage" rule means that "fouling team may not gain advantage", not, as you suggest, that the fact that no consequence arose *immidiately* should be treated as "advantage" for the victim team.

A good (US) example can be seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy87afbtTRM and studied in depth here: http://ussoccer.com/laws/papers.jsp.html

Ref in this case lets advantage rule, then, when the fouled team does not score, signals penalty (as sanction for the anterior foul), 100% correct and making him a good ref.

The official interpretation (FIFA):

...gives the Referee the discretion to allow play to continue even after a foul has been committed if stopping play would unfairly punish the fouled team (e.g., if the fouled team had a breakaway & might score even after having been fouled). The idea is that the team which committed the foul should not gain an advantage as a result of the foul.

This obviously does not exclude sanctioning afterwards when play is interrupted for other reasons (as ref you should know that).

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Well, seeing as we do have professional referees in large tournament games like these, not "amateurs" like you say.......

Intl refs have been professional since a few years, but not under the conditions I mentioned: Their fitness is not comparable to the athletes, they earn around 3.000 Euros monthly plus expenses (4k $), nothing to do with players wages...

Rattler

P.S.: Are you really a "licensed" soccer referee? PM will do. R.

A good example of a referee "making up" for the previous match in the following match is probably South Korea vs Germany in the 2002 World Cup.
It's true, the refereeing in South Korea vs Spain was utter rubbish and Spain being the better team by far on the day really got the bad end of the stick. The only reason why I don't think the ref was really bribed or anything was the first ten or fifteen minutes of the match when South Korea was doing rather well and the calls were going badly against South Korea to the point I thought that maybe the referee was being pressured by FIFA to get Korea out for the 2nd Round Korea vs Italy match. Turned out I was wrong and after 120 minutes of total BS, South Korea won the penalty shootout.
Korea vs Germany, the referee was obviously thinking more about what had happened in the previous match than the match at hand.
Didn't complain much since the quarter finals was where the journey should have ended for South Korea, but still the refereeing was obviously political that day and made for match that was hardly worth watching.

Remember, Michael Ballack was also suspended from that final by getting a yellow card in the semi final match against South Korea as well. If the referee was thinking about the next round, Ballack might as well could have been playing rugby while on defense. A bit like how Switzerland played in the 2006 World Cup in Germany! 11 goalkeepers!!! OMFG!!!

That WC really got bent by this caos, if soccer was just final should have been Spain/Brasil (and I am sayin that as a German!).

As far as the ref goes, he was a year later caught "with the hands in the pot" in Philipines for accepting a bribe to bend a game and got sentenced to jail,

Makes it more than plausible this had been the case in the South Corea vs. Spain match also (though, to be fair, Spain had it´s chance in the penalties).

Rattler