Topic: Smoothbore vs Rifling 2

godofthunder9010 · October 3rd, 2004

There should be some means of testing to two concepts. Surely one will be more accurate over a longer distance than the other, correct?

Kozzy Mozzy · October 4th, 2004

The Challenger rifle is the best main tank gun in the world. Spin stabilized rounds are inherently more accurate then fin stabilized ones, the lack of fins on the round mean it goes faster, and the gun can fire HESH, a great infantry support shell.

Too bad rifled tank guns are extremely expensive, as the rifling needs to be well made. They don't last long, the rifling wears out really fast. That's why the Brits were looking to go smoothbore, but didn't for some reason.

SHERMAN · October 4th, 2004

Ive talked about this with a very experienced armor core officer. he told me that this discusion is very old and dates back to the first 120mm...However, I would consider the fact that most armies prefer the smooth-bore to the rifling as some sort of a conclusin. The fact that the brits are now searching for a smooth bore is also a good indicator that the smooth bore is probably superior.

Kozzy Mozzy · October 4th, 2004

The reason the British *were* switching to smoothbore is totally cost related. Rifled guns are expensive, the ammo is expensive, and they both are not NATO compatible. The Brits aren't switching to smoothbore anymore, they retaining their rifled guns.

doddsy2978 · October 4th, 2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kozzy Mozzy

The reason the British *were* switching to smoothbore is totally cost related. Rifled guns are expensive, the ammo is expensive, and they both are not NATO compatible. The Brits aren't switching to smoothbore anymore, they retaining their rifled guns.

Ya see! This is where I was fooled

. Normally it would take at least twenty year for them to effect a 'U-turn'. I knew that I had been taught and seen this stuff in the late 80's/early 90's. Sorry for bein' outa date

godofthunder9010 · October 4th, 2004

Well, seems to me that a 120mm rifled barrel is a potential problem as it has a good chance of wearing out in the middle of extended combat. Significantly greater chance than a smoothbore. That could make it a pretty big liability in exchange for any advantage that it provides.

Kozzy Mozzy · October 4th, 2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by godofthunder9010

Well, seems to me that a 120mm rifled barrel is a potential problem as it has a good chance of wearing out in the middle of extended combat. Significantly greater chance than a smoothbore. That could make it a pretty big liability in exchange for any advantage that it provides.

I'm pretty sure the Brits make sure their guns are in top notch condition before going into combat.

doddsy2978 · October 5th, 2004

Certainly do! Or -- did

jamesthegren · October 25th, 2004

The only reason the British MoD was considering switching to a smoothbore gun was financial.

Modern MBT ammunition is reaching the end of it's life and it is time to start developing the next generation. This costs money. The smoothbore gun operators mainly Germany and the US will join together to split the development costs. Britain however would have to develop a next gen rifled round on it's own, and with the end of the Cold War the MoD can't afford too. Also British ammo is not NATO standard so that is an added incentive to change.

The British Army still consider the rifled 52cal 120mm the best MBT gun in the world. The M1A2 and Merkava both use shorter 44cal guns, and while the Leo2A6 uses a 52cal they don't use DU ammo like the Challenger.

Side Note: One of the main reasons why the Challenger 2 came bottom in trials for the Greek Army, is because of the non-NATO standard gun, which automatically ruled it out of contention.

The thin Red Line · November 1st, 2004

Quick note about rifle via smoothbore.

The reason most Nations go for smoothbore is that sabot and heat rounds work better when no spin is placed on them ( the French had a heat round with ball racers so the shape charge wounldn't be spinning when fired from their 105mm rifled cannon.)

The reason Uk forces have had a rifled gun is because of better range and hit probablity with normal high explosive rounds. In WW2 75% of all rounds fired were high Ex not anti tank. Thats why their kept normal 75mm gun shermans and not all 17pdr firflys.

UK had a 140mm rifle planned to replace the charm3 L30 gun. But this is not due untill the next tank. So they are looking a replacing the rifle with smooth bore due to better performance anti tank and cost of the rounds.

Final note in Gulf War 1 the UK tanks stopped using sabot rounds because they could hit and destroy the Iraq tank at 4km + with their old hesh rounds, far out ranging their sabot round.

October 3rd, 2004	Post 11
godofthunder9010 Tribunus Laticlavius Gear	There should be some means of testing to two concepts. Surely one will be more accurate over a longer distance than the other, correct? __________________ "It is well that war is so terrible, else we should grow too fond of it." - General Robert E. Lee Warning, critical pebkac error in the iD10t!! pebkac\wtflolurpwnzd\snafuroflmao.exe called iD10t, iD10t failed to respond!! System in danger!! "It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong. I am NOT a big man." -Chevy Chase

October 4th, 2004	Post 12
Kozzy Mozzy Centurion	The Challenger rifle is the best main tank gun in the world. Spin stabilized rounds are inherently more accurate then fin stabilized ones, the lack of fins on the round mean it goes faster, and the gun can fire HESH, a great infantry support shell. Too bad rifled tank guns are extremely expensive, as the rifling needs to be well made. They don't last long, the rifling wears out really fast. That's why the Brits were looking to go smoothbore, but didn't for some reason. __________________ Ahh...the AK-47, when you absolutely, positively have to kill every last motherf*cker in the room...accept no substitute -Samuel L.

October 4th, 2004	Post 13
SHERMAN Milforum Moderator Gear	Ive talked about this with a very experienced armor core officer. he told me that this discusion is very old and dates back to the first 120mm...However, I would consider the fact that most armies prefer the smooth-bore to the rifling as some sort of a conclusin. The fact that the brits are now searching for a smooth bore is also a good indicator that the smooth bore is probably superior. __________________ In the roar of engines, in the thunder of cannons,in the comradship of blood!

October 4th, 2004	Post 14
Kozzy Mozzy Centurion	The reason the British were switching to smoothbore is totally cost related. Rifled guns are expensive, the ammo is expensive, and they both are not NATO compatible. The Brits aren't switching to smoothbore anymore, they retaining their rifled guns.

October 4th, 2004	Post 16
godofthunder9010 Tribunus Laticlavius Gear	Well, seems to me that a 120mm rifled barrel is a potential problem as it has a good chance of wearing out in the middle of extended combat. Significantly greater chance than a smoothbore. That could make it a pretty big liability in exchange for any advantage that it provides.

October 5th, 2004	Post 18
doddsy2978 Immunes	Certainly do! Or -- did

October 25th, 2004	Post 19
jamesthegren Tirones	The only reason the British MoD was considering switching to a smoothbore gun was financial. Modern MBT ammunition is reaching the end of it's life and it is time to start developing the next generation. This costs money. The smoothbore gun operators mainly Germany and the US will join together to split the development costs. Britain however would have to develop a next gen rifled round on it's own, and with the end of the Cold War the MoD can't afford too. Also British ammo is not NATO standard so that is an added incentive to change. The British Army still consider the rifled 52cal 120mm the best MBT gun in the world. The M1A2 and Merkava both use shorter 44cal guns, and while the Leo2A6 uses a 52cal they don't use DU ammo like the Challenger. Side Note: One of the main reasons why the Challenger 2 came bottom in trials for the Greek Army, is because of the non-NATO standard gun, which automatically ruled it out of contention.

November 1st, 2004	Post 20
The thin Red Line Tirones	Quick note about rifle via smoothbore. The reason most Nations go for smoothbore is that sabot and heat rounds work better when no spin is placed on them ( the French had a heat round with ball racers so the shape charge wounldn't be spinning when fired from their 105mm rifled cannon.) The reason Uk forces have had a rifled gun is because of better range and hit probablity with normal high explosive rounds. In WW2 75% of all rounds fired were high Ex not anti tank. Thats why their kept normal 75mm gun shermans and not all 17pdr firflys. UK had a 140mm rifle planned to replace the charm3 L30 gun. But this is not due untill the next tank. So they are looking a replacing the rifle with smooth bore due to better performance anti tank and cost of the rounds. Final note in Gulf War 1 the UK tanks stopped using sabot rounds because they could hit and destroy the Iraq tank at 4km + with their old hesh rounds, far out ranging their sabot round.