Originally Posted by bulldogg

Actually you are very wrong. The vast majority of the people in Aceh refused the aid that came from non-islamic countries. They were asking the source of the aid and refused it when told it was from the US. Not all but more than half. In fact most of them are still homeless because they would rather suffer than accept aid from the US. Such is the effect of the fatalistic aspects of Islam for the santri. Aceh is very different from the rest of Indonesia.

I am also very cognisant of the fact you have chosen the softball question over addressing my points.

Heheh I remember seeing a report on this on CNN and BBC. Reminds me of when the US offered to send food and grain (genetically engineered... you know, the ones we all buy at Albertsons, Costco, and just about every freakin grocery store in America!) to Zimbabwe but Greenpeace told the Zimbabwen (sp?) that the food was tainted and meant to poison its citizens. So of course the Zimbabwen government believed them and denied the food offerrings at the cost of millions of starving Africans... Yea poinsoned wheat and grain.... that's why the US is one of the fattest countries in the world and Africa has most of the skinniest....

You can change public opinion in the muslim world, not like people there are gluttons for punishment. It's their conservative societies that cause problems, if the people can get aid i don't think it's a huge issue of where that aid comes from. If you were in a disaster relief zone would you care if the supplies were coming from cuba or china, aid is aid.

It's because we keep squandering international good will that America has a more negative image in the world. No level of military readiness is going to change that, addressing the issues of world poverty and hunger will. First the States has to get its act together and take care of its problems at home then go out and help the rest of the world.

It's naive to think that our country is so spectacular that we can have the moral high ground against other nations. I like America, but like a lot of people i don't like the policies being created that are turning world opinion against us. Muslim people don't hate us, their governments hate us.

Gotta agree there, america although it donates more aid than any other country , will never really claim successfully the moral highground on a lot of issues because it essentially pisses of the world a fair bit with its foreign policies.

On the issue of military spending though, major powers who reduce their military spending also reduce their military power and things inevitably start going awry a tad.

Its true that security can't be secured through military power, there are other factors that come into play. The war on terror should also focus on improving ailing relations with other countries to discourage support for terrorists. Sometimes you gotta give a little to get a little.

Originally Posted by WarMachine

Muslim people don't hate us, their governments hate us.

All fanatical Muslims (and there are millions and millions of them) hate YOU specifically.

They don't hate you because of your government, they hate you because you're an infidel.

You better learn that.

As someone who has been studying Muslim beliefs and doctrine for some time now, I'd have to say PJ24 is correct.

Most of he governments in Muslim actually don't hate the USA, they get money from us. But outwardly they have to have the appearance that they do not like the US. Firstly to gain favor with the fundamentalist which influences the majority. And secondly to give the people an enemy to think about, in order to distract attention away from themsleves.

If you ask the average Muslim in the those countries if they hate the USA they will say yes, but if you ask them would they like to come to the USA they will say yes, contradictory but true.

My own personal experience regarding any devout Muslims I know here in the US is that they do not like the USA even though they live here. They complain how bad it is for boy and girls to mix in shcool for example, and how our infidel lifestyle is wrong, nevermind the fact that they live comfortably over here.

Most Muslims are probably normal folks, but the problem is almost all their doctrines are fed to them by fundamentalist Imams, and that is bnasicly where they get their beliefs from. So do they hate us? For the part, yes. Because from childhood they are told we are infidels and influenced by evil.

Cutting spending on defense does nothing more than weaken the war fighter.

If you follow the current esclation of costs for everything, military or non military, you see that prices are going up on everything.

I've bought gas for $0.25.9 a gallon, last time I checked it is somewhat higher these days. If you look at the cola and the percentages of other things that could be bought for nickles and dimes in the past you are now paying dollars plus for. Check out simple items such as bread and milk in 1960 or 1970.

The figures per item might vary but the bottom line is that prices are going up and you do not want the military to fall behind in the ability to wage smart war. (technically sound war to be PC).

Even someof the mainstream Muslims support what the radicals are doing. I worked with a couple of guys that were good co-workers. They were decidedly for the 9/11 attacks and were not ashamed to hide their approval of that attack.

I cannot be sold down the river by anyone that claims that they are a peaceful religion.

Funny, all the muslims i've known at school have none of those beliefs. One of them is from Algeria and the other is from Pakistan, they're both pretty smart and i've never known them to be fanatical to any extent. Unless you count going to friday prayer and respecting the traditions of ramadan as fanatical.

I suppose they listen to what their imams have to say out of respect, i've heard of some conservative christian preachers that aren't very nice either. What both those groups need is to think for themselves rather than have someone else tell them what to do and what to think. That was our opinion of the communists in the cold war and for some reason you can't apply that to religion? You give people education and a chance to live better lives than i think those imam's influence will die down. Of course they'll always be around telling people to hate america, that's just the way society is sometimes.

I'm sorry that there are those who hate america but then there are those kinds in every continent, from catholics to hindus they have America haters. Islam historically has been much more peaceful than christianity, if you go by body count then the muslims have a tremendous way to go in order to match the death toll that europeans and other christians have accumulated over the centuries. However, you give them a peaceful alternative then they'll calm down.

Originally Posted by WarMachine

It's because we keep squandering international good will that America has a more negative image in the world. No level of military readiness is going to change that, addressing the issues of world poverty and hunger will. First the States has to get its act together and take care of its problems at home then go out and help the rest of the world.

First, we don't help other Nations enough. When that is proven false, then you say we don't spend enough on our own people. As many years as I have flown over the Coasts and from border to border, I haven't seen one small town or large City where there weren't more backyard swimming pools than could be counted. America is not only rich but unselfish.

Originally Posted by WarMachine

It's naive to think that our country is so spectacular that we can have the moral high ground against other nations.

Well, we aren't squatting beside a mudhole in Africa watching our children starve to death, so I guess we are a little more moral than a warlord that guns down or starves entire civilizations in their own country because they aren't from their tribe.

Originally Posted by WarMachine

I like America, but like a lot of people i don't like the policies being created that are turning world opinion against us. Muslim people don't hate us, their governments hate us.

I don't just like America, I LOVE Her and served proudly when my turn came. I stand on arthritic knees and ankles in my American Legion uniform when Old Glory passes in a parade and if someone doesn't want to see an old man tear up, they better avert their eyes because I can't help it.

Soldiers don't fight wars for policy, they fight to protect their country and those too weak to fight for themselves. Muslims or any other culture have the freedom to hate us and express disgust for America, it's attacking our people that is the line they cannot cross.

You have a right to speak your mind about America but just never forget how you got and held that right.

GOD BLESS THE USA.

Originally Posted by WarMachine

Funny, all the muslims i've known at school have none of those beliefs. One of them is from Algeria and the other is from Pakistan, they're both pretty smart and i've never known them to be fanatical to any extent. Unless you count going to friday prayer and respecting the traditions of ramadan as fanatical.

I suppose they listen to what their imams have to say out of respect, i've heard of some conservative christian preachers that aren't very nice either. What both those groups need is to think for themselves rather than have someone else tell them what to do and what to think. That was our opinion of the communists in the cold war and for some reason you can't apply that to religion? You give people education and a chance to live better lives than i think those imam's influence will die down. Of course they'll always be around telling people to hate america, that's just the way society is sometimes.

I'm sorry that there are those who hate america but then there are those kinds in every continent, from catholics to hindus they have America haters. Islam historically has been much more peaceful than christianity, if you go by body count then the muslims have a tremendous way to go in order to match the death toll that europeans and other christians have accumulated over the centuries. However, you give them a peaceful alternative then they'll calm down.

I've spent a lot of time in the middle east and around fanatical Muslims. You're still wrong.

You must have some sort of magnetism for fanatics then because in the civilian world here in California, i have yet to see or hear of any such things. If you're in the mid east then guess what? You're bound to run into fanatics, we are occupying two muslim nations right now, so of course they'll be fanatical. Only now they have more support in the governments which isn't a positive thing unless you're Osama.

And missiler, i wasn't bashing on the Americans and their values, i'm criticizing the current administration's policies, two different things.