Hi MM - please don't keep referring to it as a 'Church 'issue. That is irrelevant, come to it only as an issue for mankind. Don't see it as part of your opposition to any church or you retain the blindfold.

Abortion is the killing of babies, who have no choice in the matter. 18 years after an abortion, a woman can look around her table at her family and remember that another son or daughter should be sat there, an absent friend indeed. Every year the same - just as my wife does since we lost our sixth baby from miscarriage. Nobody but me recognises the little tear; even though we have five children and 11 grandchildren, she remembers and grieves silently. Very little to do with religious dogma, everything to do with truth and not being afraid to face it.

War pales into insignificence weighed against the devastation faced by continuing generations of our citizens.

Forget the anti-church agendas, forget denial of it as killing, no-one can claim the highground in any issue if they approve of abortion on principle.

Want CHOICE ? Fine, take the choice before conception. Easy. Other wise accept your lovely perfect new human as a blessing, with pride.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Want CHOICE ? Fine, take the choice before conception.

This is 100% how I feel

And mmarsh? If a fertilized egg was not there would be no birth. The moment of conception it is a baby - one cannot pick and choose when to decide it's a child. In my opinion.

(P.S. And as a second note, comparing abortion and the death penalty is asinine).

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Abortion is the killing of babies, who have no choice in the matter. 18 years after an abortion, a woman can look around her table at her family and remember that another son or daughter should be sat there, an absent friend indeed. Every year the same - just as my wife does since we lost our sixth baby from miscarriage. Nobody but me recognises the little tear; even though we have five children and 11 grandchildren, she remembers and grieves silently. Very little to do with religious dogma, everything to do with truth and not being afraid to face it.

Not everyone follows this logic and to others the opposite or a different point in pregnancy can seem perfectly logical. Don't forget that.
I personally believe that when a human egg is fertilized, you have a person in the making but it's something I can't prove and many people can't prove either. Until then, each to their own.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

"Abortion is the killing of babies, who have no choice in the matter. 18 years after an abortion, a woman can look around her table at her family and remember that another son or daughter should be sat there, an absent friend indeed. Every year the same - just as my wife does since we lost our sixth baby from miscarriage. Nobody but me recognises the little tear; even though we have five children and 11 grandchildren, she remembers and grieves silently. Very little to do with religious dogma, everything to do with truth and not being afraid to face it."

I and my second wife lost a child, and while I can sympathise with you and know the pain of the loss, I disagree with a portion of the above statement. A handful of cells (the point at which MOST abortions are performed), is NOT the killing of a baby. It is ONLY a potential baby unless you bring religion into the mix by saying the soul was created at the moment of inception.

The reality of today's world, is the very real fact that many many unwanted children are brought into this world only to be abandoned or to suffer an even worse fate. I won't mention those fates but we all know what I am talking about. Whether we PERSONALLY would make the decision to abort an unwanted pregnancy is moot ... what is germane, is the fact that the option is open to women to make the decision for themselves. That is why Roe-v-Wade is important to American women.

Inception is the only the only point we have to measure whether what we have is a life or not. It just cannot be denied that in order to achieve an abortion a life has to be taken, otherwise that son or daughter would still be with us in all probability.

I can understand those who say - we know that the killing takes place but our needs are greater than the baby's, but I find it difficult to understand how, with all the medical evidence we have, it can be argued that a baby does not exist.

It is not necessarily a question of religious belief, if a church told me that I must accept the principle of abortion , I would oppose that position.

As a man I take the position that it is our duty as a civilisation to protect and defend our unborn children as well as the born, and that if we are not prepared to do both ( we do neither very well in my opinion) then we are in exactly the cycle of decadence that might well bring us down. In other words - are we worthy?

Forget religion for the sake of this argument, No-one can say that choice is not available; it is very simple, if you do not want a baby - do not concieve. If you concieve, face your responsibility. Do not call upon society to kill your child.

All the subsequent problems of care of our young should be given every assistance of course.

I am not against women at all, I love them, but I have to be pro-choice at conception and pro-life after that.

Abortion has largely become no more than contraception.

I wish I had not not been faced with this question here, i think I should try to make this my last effort, if I can.

I don't approve of abortion being used like a contraception either... after all, who knows the person may be itself upon inception. I don't think so, but maybe.
But on the other hand sometimes abortion is the best option for everyone, including the fetus or cluster of cells depending on the stage of development.
Also, values don't necessarily have to be religious. Other cultural values can be just as powerful. That's why people who say "do away with religion" are idiots because even a political system can fill the vacuum quite comfortably. Basically you'd have to blow everyone's brains out.
So either way, I'm keeping an open mind and although I think abortion should not be taken lightly, it should not be illegal either.

I like the 'vacuum' point, and to a degree Islam is filling this at the present in many cases - but that's another matter altogether of course.

And of course I understand the degree question involved in this issue, but I would certainly like to see very early and clear definition as a minimum check.

And everyone surely admits that contraception in all its available form is no longer a difficult proposition. Certainly not difficult enough to carelessly cost a life.

Right -Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........................

If I had been aborted before my brain turned on, I wouldn't care, because I'd be a mass of cells without any mind to speak of. I simply can't see how you can say conception is the beginning of life. To me, it is the potential for life, but getting rid of it isn't killing, because the person hasn't been built or become conscious of its own existence yet. I'll probably take a lot of flames for this, but that's just the way I see it. It might help you understand my position if you knew I don't believe in the soul, only the mind. I don't think cells with the potential to become human beings are endowed with some mystical force that makes them just as important as a human being.

This is why I think that abortion should be out of the question once the fetus' brain starts working, unless the mother will be injured or killed by giving birth.

Edit: And yes, contraceptives are a much better option for birth control than abortion. Hell, with morning-after pills you really have no excuse these days, unless you live somewhere where they are inaccessible.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Hi MM - please don't keep referring to it as a 'Church 'issue. That is irrelevant, come to it only as an issue for mankind. Don't see it as part of your opposition to any church or you retain the blindfold.

Abortion is the killing of babies, who have no choice in the matter. 18 years after an abortion, a woman can look around her table at her family and remember that another son or daughter should be sat there, an absent friend indeed. Every year the same - just as my wife does since we lost our sixth baby from miscarriage. Nobody but me recognises the little tear; even though we have five children and 11 grandchildren, she remembers and grieves silently. Very little to do with religious dogma, everything to do with truth and not being afraid to face it.

War pales into insignificence weighed against the devastation faced by continuing generations of our citizens.

Forget the anti-church agendas, forget denial of it as killing, no-one can claim the highground in any issue if they approve of abortion on principle.

Want CHOICE ? Fine, take the choice before conception. Easy. Other wise accept your lovely perfect new human as a blessing, with pride.

Del Boy

I am sorry but its not irrelevant, things are different in the UK than in the USA. In the USA the majority of pro-life arguments come from religious groups who cite scripture in their literature as the reason for being against abortion. 'Thou shall not kill and all that'. Its no different than Muslim extremists telling why I shouldn't eat pork (because the Koran forbids it). In each case they are using THEIR God to impose THEIR values on me. So it is totally relevant to tell them to mind their own business, as I don't share their religious views.

I am sorry about your wifes miscarriage, I truly am. But that is no reason to impose your views on conception on others because you suffered a loss. Thats the point of being PRO-CHOICE, as the Other Guy pointed out its the right to Choose to carry a fetus to term or not. I am against any type of imposition ESPICIALLY on moral grounds.

As others pointed out the HIGHGROUND (morality) is a matter of personal opinion. In my view and most others abortion is permissable. That might not be your view, but it is mine.

And yes, contraception is better than abortion. But its not 100% effective. My ex got pregnant in just such a fashion.

And again you fail to mention a solution to all the unwanted babies that are abandoned each year by their parents. Its always those that have not been born rather than the babies that are already born.

Originally Posted by major liability

the person hasn't been built or become conscious of its own existence yet. I'll probably take a lot of flames for this, but that's just the way I see it.

I don't think cells with the potential to become human beings are endowed with some mystical force that makes them just as important as a human being.

A baby isn't conscious of it's own existence yet, so lets quit bothering with partial birth abortion and just kill them when the mother gives birth naturally.

They ARE just as important as a human being. There would BE no baby if not for that moment of conception and those 'cells.'

Originally Posted by major liability

Edit: And yes, contraceptives are a much better option for birth control than abortion. Hell, with morning-after pills you really have no excuse these days, unless you live somewhere where they are inaccessible.

Morning after pills are not a birth control and should not be used as such. I believe these should be hospital regulated and only given to women that are raped.

Morning after pills, "can't be bothered with keeping up on your birth control pills? Boyfriend doesn't want to wear a condom? Try us, we kill any chance of babies for you ladies that are lazy!"