Originally Posted by MontyB

Don't tell them what?
That their politicians failed them again?

I am somewhat amused that you persistently feel the need quieten people you don't agree with by casting your own spin on things and creating stories but at no point in this discussion has anyone blamed the military or those serving it for the mess that Iraq has become in terms of failing public support.

Once again, you miss the point.

To not support the mission is to not support the soldiers.

Allow me to put this into a civilian perspective for you:

You're a framer contracted to build a house. You spend your sweat, blood and tears putting pieces of lumber together to fabricate this new, custom domicile. You're just doing your job, and you did it in the best way possible, even though you don't own the actual company contracted to provide the completed structure. You did it well.

Enter Joe Homeowner. Joe snivels and grunts. Eventually, he looks at a wall and comments, "Well, the carpentry is good, but this house sucks."

Perhaps a sheet rocker got to that homeowner's ear first, complaining that you toenailed in too many studs. Maybe it was the painter that critiqued the sheetrocker's work. Maybe the general contractor passed off his or her incompetency to the framers.

Either way, as the homeowner, are you encouraging the framers or discouraging them?

Regardless of the framing, all you see and criticize if the finished product, yes? The substructure means nothing to you. But if you're the framer, no matter how much sweat equity you put into the project, you have failed.

And you support us, the troops? Hardly. One of the biggest FOB and FOBBIT jokes inside the wire are those who have no clue concerning the nails we use or how we fasten load bearing walls in a manner that surrounds the structure with tensile strength.

All we hear is that we're failing. And every time you state as much, you take a bit away from everything we're obligated to do. You hurt unity. You hurt cohesion.

You think that's cool? That you're somehow cool for being the protester?

What have you done for me lately?

Put that in your protesting pipe and smoke it.

Originally Posted by AZ_Infantry

So, which is it, my friend? Are the politicians and "general public" of this country just stupid, or were people "duped and fooled" and, in retrospect, stupid?

I don't think the general public are stupid, it is human nature to accept that those charged with a task are generally telling you the truth and they followed normal procedure when confronted with the information they were given they also reacted normally when they found that same information was false.

Politicians I think thats a double edged sword, my personal opinion is that yes they were duped but that was only a small part of their failing, they should have done their own work and scrutinised the information they were given before they acted but to their credit they did at least acknowledge that things were not right once they did have all the information although by then it was far to late.

So, what you are stating, in brevity, is that politicians are not responsible for their own signatures? In other words, President Bush cannot be held accountable for the invasion given his advisory committee; likewise, I am not responsible for any driving infractions occurring between the time I received my license and now if I was not personally aware than a new law was enacted?

To be honest I can't answer the question because as yet I am undecided as to whether Bush instigated the action or was led into it by others although no matter what the answer he does have to take the largest portion of responsibility as the guy at the top, however you are responsible for your driving actions because it is your responsibility to keep up to date with the road rules.

NB: The politicians part is I believe answered by the first part of my post.

To not support the mission is to not support the soldiers.

I wonder how much of this is true and how much of it is designed to shut people up.
For example (as you can tell) I think the Iraq "mission" was a monumental cock on the political front that never should have happened however I have no desire to see the "insurgents" win and I would hope that those over there fighting them are equipped with all that they require to do their job as safely as possible.
I cannot see how that says I don't support the troops and I hope it sure as hell says that I think the reasons for them being there is wrong.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Don't tell them what?
That their politicians failed them again?

I am somewhat amused that you persistently feel the need quieten people you don't agree with by casting your own spin on things and creating stories but at no point in this discussion has anyone blamed the military or those serving it for the mess that Iraq has become in terms of failing public support.

Out of curiosity, and speaking from the perspective of a man who has always had civil discourse with you on these forums, what's the point? Do we have a new voting system I am unaware of that allows military members exclusive voting content?

Did our politicians fail us? Ask a veteran - in fact, you can ask THIS veteran.

Does it matter a hill of beans? Nope. The fact is that your anti-war rhetoric drags all of us soldiers down, and your anti-American stance is one that needs slapped in wall to wall counseling like a red-headed stepchild that just wet the bed.

If you can't understand the nature of honor, at least shut your mouth and allow those of us with it to explain it to you.

And Del is quite correct, as 13th Redneck will attest to (I am sure): say it to my face, you won't be saying it for long.

What happened to you, Monty? You used to be level headed and intelligent in all you stated as personal contention. Now you just want to sling insults? To use the war as a platform?

C'mon, man, you're better than this.

God, I love the United States.

Originally Posted by AZ_Infantry

Out of curiosity, and speaking from the perspective of a man who has always had civil discourse with you on these forums, what's the point? Do we have a new voting system I am unaware of that allows military members exclusive voting content?

Did our politicians fail us? Ask a veteran - in fact, you can ask THIS veteran.

Does it matter a hill of beans? Nope. The fact is that your anti-war rhetoric drags all of us soldiers down, and your anti-American stance is one that needs slapped in wall to wall counseling like a red-headed stepchild that just wet the bed.

If you can't understand the nature of honor, at least shut your mouth and allow those of us with it to explain it to you.

And Del is quite correct, as 13th Redneck will attest to (I am sure): say it to my face, you won't be saying it for long.

What happened to you, Monty? You used to be level headed and intelligent in all you stated as personal contention. Now you just want to sling insults? To use the war as a platform?

C'mon, man, you're better than this.

So you are adopting the "if you don't agree with me you are anti-american" argument, as far as making threats go I am more than happy for you to pop over here and try and enact them but please don't believe that you generate some sort of fear I am quite capable of defending myself and personally have no desire waste time on a pointless show of testosterone.

Now I may be better than this but I don't think your unenforceable threats will sway the matter.

I wouldn't be attempting to use "honour" as an argument to support my case here. Honour is a two way street.

Soldiers just do what they are told and that goes from top to bottom. There is absolutely no correlation between not supporting the war and not supporting our armed forces, they are there because they were sent, end of story.

Also i must say that i am appalled at this line of defense that anyone who disagrees with the war is anti American. That is nothing more than a cheap cop out designed to stifle logical debate.

This image was inappropriate and removed.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I wonder how much of this is true and how much of it is designed to shut people up.
For example (as you can tell) I think the Iraq "mission" was a monumental cock on the political front that never should have happened however I have no desire to see the "insurgents" win and I would hope that those over there fighting them are equipped with all that they require to do their job as safely as possible.
I cannot see how that says I don't support the troops and I hope it sure as hell says that I think the reasons for them being there is wrong.

Do I really strike you as a man that wishes to "shut [you] up?"

I have never been anything less than polite to you, and you have returned that respect in its fullness. For that, I thank you.

But you're out of your element here, sir. Were you EVER Blue roped out in the theater of OEF, OIF? No? Then you are welcome to your opinion, as I defended your right to have it, but it remains an opinion.

I am telling you what the soldiers feel. Accept that not as admonishment, but as information. I don't give two hooeys what drunken sailor in your local bar tells you, I am telling you the straight-up, friend to friend, no different than when 13th visited my house and I honored him with the truth... truth.

We are soldiers here. We just don't care what hype you've bought into in your forays to the local news media garbage. We did our time, sand on our boots (look at my times in service, sir), and we'll stand only for so much anti-war nonsensical drama before we fire back.

Uh, actually I quit firing back after I was issued a wedgie by a mod.

Originally Posted by MontyB

So you are adopting the "if you don't agree with me you are anti-american" argument, as far as making threats go I am more than happy for you to pop over here and try and enact them but please don't believe that you generate some sort of fear I am quite capable of defending myself and personally have no desire waste time on a pointless show of testosterone.

Now I may be better than this but I don't think your unenforceable threats will sway the matter.

Sigh...

Monty, please don't threaten me. Some from this board have visited me here in my own home and will tell you that I am quite capable of defending myself. Take your "unenforceable threats" and keep them, bro. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else, and I did not threaten you or anyone else.

I am not a threatening person. I am small, even scrawny. I am no threat to you.

Please stick to the argument, as you're beginning to bore me.