About Remarks by retired generals calling for Rumsfeld's ouster Page 2
|April 15th, 2006||#11|
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But I'm looking at this from a military perspective, and I cannot excuse these GOs for their inaction either. None of these men were willing to fall on their sword to protect the men they were charged with leading. None were willing to resign in protest and get their message heard when it may have made a difference. If they were planning on going to the press anyway, and obviously they were, why not go out with a boom? They're the guys that people listen to (even if sometimes they shouldn't) not the little fish.
Now they, like those they accuse, are part of the political grand-standing.
Yeah, you can pretty much bet as a GO your career is over if you make a stand against the current admin. That doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Civilians couldn't care less about their military careers, or what they did or didn't do about this while they were in. They're going to see "oh guy that had big shiney stuff and a uniform says this," and they're going to go with it. I can't help but look at it from a military perspective and wonder where this leadership was when it counted.
Because they remained quiet, they supported the SECDEF, they were part of the decisions that have impacted those of us that have been and are on the ground. That makes them just as guilty of what they accuse Rumsfeld for, in my eyes.
I've spent the past several years shaking my head over a lot of decisions that have trickled down. Not all of the things that caused me to do so are to blame on the current admin. some of the blame lies directly on the shoulders of men just like these. And vice versa.
I've been in the military long enough to know the real deal, like I said, I can count on one hand the number of GOs I know or know of that would sacrifice their careers for their men. It still doesn't settle right with me, though, and I doubt it ever will.
Ut ceteri vivant.
|April 15th, 2006||#12|
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BZ's to you ..... info
Bravo Zulu's to you ... I couldn't agree more.
Yes they failed the men they led ... but for the life of me, I CAN understand why some of them didn't speak out.
That doesn't mean I think it was right ... but ... I can't really blame them for NOT speaking out while they were 'on the bulls-eye' considering the political climate both within the military as well as in the civilian halls of government..
|April 15th, 2006||#13|
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PJ has put it in words so no sense repeating them. I went through OCS and I remember very clearly that lesson about resigning in protest after you have tried internally EVERYTHING you can.
And also that the men under your command are more important than your career... that is part and parcel, inseperable, from the heart of being a good NCO or Officer of any grade. The rest is all bullspit. Reality this and reality that... politics is an excuse for lacking the moral fortitude to do what is right when push come to shove.
"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck
|April 15th, 2006||#14|
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But didn't one of the generals, Gregory Newbold, resign due to this, thus ending his career. I reckon there will always be a schism between the policy makers and executioners and there should be. Europe has seen many countries where the military and politics were an entity and this didn't go well. It just start to become troublesome when the two can't work together apart, if you know what I mean? Imo Rumsfeld so go because his name is tainted and the military has a long memory. The US, or any other nation, can't afford a situation where politics and military become rivals!
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Sir Winston Churchill
|April 15th, 2006||#15|
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I know that as an NCO I look out for my troops first and foremost. Then I worry about others. I have had my butt chewed once or twice because of this and was threatened to be busted down a rank as well. It never happened because when all the facts came to light I was in the moral and legal right.
It is all a matter of how you go about doing or saying it is all.
|April 15th, 2006||#16|
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|April 15th, 2006||#17|
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As long as the Military, by design, is under civilian control, there will be wide differences of opinions about anything to do with combat. The President is the CIC, so his staff gets to move the chess pieces. That's how the Founding Fathers wrote it, to keep the Military in check. I don't care for Rumsfeld and haven't from the get-go but at the present, he's calling the shots.
“War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.”
—John Stuart Mill
|April 15th, 2006||#18|
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To respond to a point you made earlier.
I think whats partly so damning is not that 6 Genarals condemned Rumsfeld but that 3 of these Generals worked directly for him, its not like these guys were stationed in Antartica weather station and got their news via dogsled. They guys worked with the man, that says alot.
In this instance, Civilian careers is not so different from military ones. For example, if I think my boss is an incompentant weenie I am not going to go to the CEO and ask him to fire my boss. That would probably be a detriment to my civilian career as it would be for somebody elses military career.
On the other hand, I do know some people who hated their boss, quit or retired from their job and then wrote the CEO to tell them the boss was a weenie. It happened in my office not too long ago (provoking an earthquake), and its what these ex-generals were trying to do now.
Bush will never fire Rumsfeld. He's had plenty of chances over the Iraq intelligence, the Abu Garab scandel, and the poor waging of the war to date. If Bush was going to fire Rummy, he would have done so long ago...
Last edited by mmarsh; April 15th, 2006 at 16:50..
|April 15th, 2006||#19|
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The learning never took ... info
On Naval ships, Chief Petty Officers are expected to stand between the deckplate and the officer corps as the bridge and guardian of the rights of the able seamen and Junior noncoms. It's demanded of us that we put it on the line when a Junior Officer (or) even a Senior Officer steps over the line, even if we have to jump the chain of command. This step is never approached lightly ... you better have exhausted all of the internal stepping stones before you go outside your own chain of command.
It seems to me, that CPO's having been doing it right for generations and generations ... I don't really understand why someone who has reached the exalted rank of Commanding General, haven't learned to place their men first ... I know they received the training that taught them this truth.
I GUESS THE LEARNING NEVER TOOK IN THEIR CASE.
|April 15th, 2006||#20|
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