Originally Posted by The Other Guy

the economy of the people who drive civilian Humvees, or those who drive the Toyota Prius?

Interesting question.

I am afraid that we have already lost in Iraq. We are going to pull out, question is when. This will have very ugly and far reaching ramifications for our nation's future...

Originally Posted by senojekips

When the time arrives that our collective Governments finally realise that there is no honourable way out as they did in Vietnam we will all be forced to go to the table and eat another giant sized serving of Humble Pie, and believe me, "I don't like it".

The politicians will bluster and make excuses but the truth will remain, we lost. Not because of the lack of courage or will to fight, of the men on the firing line, but those who led us too hastily into something that they didn't give proper consideration at the very start.

In wars such as this we don't only lose the war, we lose our honour in the eyes of the world. Once again, "I don't like it"

That's my view anyway.

What a pity that some people never learn from their historical errors. It is not they who die for their blunders and political greed.

We have not lost. We've got Iraqi's fighting Iraqis instead of fighting us on our home soil or in the UK. We do however need to get our together and make the Iraqi government quit fiddle-farting around and do what they need to do to get their house in order starting with funding and support for their police instead of private friggin militias. As for the civil war, far more Iraqis are killing each other rather than Americans so I say let them have at it and when they bleed enough it will be easier to mop up. That said this is going to be guaranteed employment for the DoD's various branches for decades to come.

I believe the reason that Saddam didn't initially say he had no WMD was because he was afraid of an invasion from Iran. He wanted to make their government wonder if it would be a good idea to invade or not...

Well the great things about opinions is that everyone's got one........we really don't know the real reason for invading, or why Saddam didn't right away say he didn't have WMD.......not enough evidance to prove or disprove the point.........maybe he just didn't want to sit down to tea with UN inpsectors.

What the point is, is that we are there, we are NOT losing in a military/tactical term, and it's all about power for them, not religion. Each sect wants the biggest voice in Gov't.......and we get stuck in the middle of their little kill joy spree. Enough will die for them to relize that no ones getting anything and that compliance is about the only thing to do.

It's all about the politics of the situation, has been for most wars the US has been involved in. Someone wants the power so he can make the other guy work for him.

The Shitte's want the power because they have been for the last 35 years, the Sunni's don't want another Saddam like regimist in power but are afraid the Shitte's will get Iran (A shitte nation) involved in this, so they sit back and let the shitte's take pot shots at them. Adn the Kurds don't want anything other than to be left alone.

Had a very interesting class on Iraq, it's geography, it's people, current and past conflict, the region, influance, ect.........but what made it all interesting and worth while was it was by a native. A Kurd who was bnorn and lived in Iraq and was an Army translator and came here to the US.

With that, my crystal ball now sees 3 different countries, all constantly at war...

Originally Posted by bulldogg

We have not lost.

We didn't lose in Vietnam either, but we finally had to sue for peace and admit that we couldn't win.

A negotiated withdrawal (another term for retreat), won't stop the remainder of the worlds nations, smirking as we tuck our tails between our legs and sneak out the back door. The more we try to hide the fact, the bigger will be their smirks.

We can't win, and we can't save the Iraqi people from themselves. There comes a time when it's better we cut our losses and just go home. Should another Saddam get in control, do what we should have done this time, give him a Hellfire enema.

You should be a speech writer. That was quite impressive.

Most times it's just less painful to say it like it is. I'm not a politician, I'm not frightened of being voted out of office. I can tell the truth without fear or favour.

I just feel sorry for those who will have paid the ultimate sacrifice to fulfil the ill thoughtout dreams of politicians who won't get much closer than watching the nightly news.

I feel that those politicians who lied about WMD and all the other crap should be held responsible for their actions. At best it was negligence, at worst culpable homicide.

Simplistic,... hell yeah,.... but very very true.