Forum - please excuse this post - it is not spam.
I was obliged to answer the questions put to me, with my last 2 posts. But as you are aware, this has become a most delicate and passionate issue and in order to assure the forum and mmarsh of my position & sincerity in them I am posting here a poem I wrote last month regarding the legitimacy of War and I believe it brings into focus our ultimate dependacy upon the miltary. As it happens it in no way involved the question of abortion at the time; I have never written on that subject because it is such a personal issue.


WAR

Would you fight to save a baby,
Helpless but for you. ?
Would you fight to save your children,
When the wolves were at the door?
Would you fight to save your soul-mate,
The one you vowed to live for?
Would you fight to save your neighbour
From slavery and death?
In the stand to save your country
Would you offer your last breath?
Would you fight to save a people
From deliberate extinction?


When they said
We will allow
No children
Less than one metre tall
To survive
In this community
And they conducted
Regular rounds
With a measuring stick
For the small children
Who
Tried to stretch upwards
To become taller,
To avoid extinction,
Would you fight?


Would you fight to save the world
From enslavement and oppression
Others would impose upon it?
Would you fight to save your soul,
My friend,
When you heard your conscience call ?
This is the great dilemma.

We call it war.


c.may2007

Thank you.

First of all lets be clear about the terminology.

In the US, a fetus is not a baby, nor a kid, nor even a human being. The United States Supreme Court (which interprets the US Constitution) has only recognized a fetus as being 1/4 of a human being (Roe vs Wade, 1971). Fetuses have very little rights (almost none) according to US law. Its just like the yoke of an egg cannot be considered a chicken. Therefore because US law does not consider a fetus to be Human, an abortion can not be considered murder. At the same time, the Fetus's mother does have full rights of Life and liberty which means she is entitled to govern her body in the way she sees fit, until the final stages of pregnancy when the Fetus legally becomes a baby and inherits the rights gaurenteed to it by the US Constitution. Thats is how the law in interpreted in the USA, and over 70% of Americans are pro-choice.

One last point. In the US if you are against abortion you are considered pro-life, if you are for keeping it legal you are pro-choice. It doesn't mean your an activist, it just defines you as where you stand on the issue. That's all I meant by pro-life. I am pro-choice, but I am not an activist either.

In terms of Immigration, as much as we try and pretend that racism is dead in America, it isn't. I think racism is the issue for many people, espicially those who want to deport every illegal they find. I find it funny that nobody never mentions the thousands of illegals from countries from places like China, and that the debate is almost totally focased on the Mexican Border. I don't think people are completely honest with themselves as to the reasons of why the are against immigration. There ARE some good reasons, but you never hear them mentioned.

Case in point, Just a few days ago Bill O'Reilly (Fox News GOP apologist) and John McCain was discussing immigration and bemoaned the loss of the "white, Christian, male, power structure". When pressed, McCain doesn't actually deny that Racism is a factor, (he skillfully ducks the question).

The transcript and video are here:
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com...ves/10970.html

In terms of WWII yes the Americans played an important role in liberating Europe (my other Grandfather was at D-Day), but that doesn't serve as the universal excuse to do whatever the US pleases especially when it 60 years later. A true friend advises you on what's in your best interest, even when its not what you want to hear. I would have vastly preferred that Blair had told Bush what an awful idea invading Iraq was, instead of sucking up to him. By playing the part of 'Bush's poodle' not only did he facilitate America's descent into this god-awful mess he allowed Britain to be dragged down with it.

Venturing far afield since I last logged in... what was the topic of this thread again?

We are right on it Bulldog, don't worry.

The following is addressed to mmarsh -

Tell that to The marines, or in this case to the baby whose head is crushed.
No-one needs a law to recognise killing. As i clearly stated - life is snuffed out.

As for the rest, yes, I am on your case now - all who are concerned with immigration are racists to a degree! What a sad take!

Listen to me - My country is full of this stuff you peddle, and it eats away at the moral fibre of the nation continually, we become weaker and weaker.

America should beware of those who nibble away at its long held principles.

And it would be nice not to lightly sweep aside America's contribution to WW11. They saved Europe then, so that you can now sit comfortably in Paris.

America is freedom's only hope. If they lose their moral conviction, who will pick up the baton. Not those who cannot be trusted to defend the spark of life.

Do I detect a sudden dropping of the Holocaust issue?

I would not dream of interfering in American politics, and I do not require instructions regarding how Britain should treat the greatest friend we ever had. We agreed with our friend. History will judge. The unfortunate point is how poorly the post war arrangements were handled.

We are involved in a Global War against Fundamental Islamic Ideology.
You were late in recognising it. Sep 11 woke the giant. The worst move the enemy ever made. I suppose that you yourself are in denial regarding that as well. The enemy within? Rubbish, I suppose! Your attitude is translated by the enemy as the weak under-belly that will bring about your destruction.

The question for you is, is it too late for Europe? Or, more to the point, is it too late for Europe without the support of the US.

When the time comes that you are confronted by the dragon - will you tell it your country has a law against it?

[quote=Del Boy;321192]We are right on it Bulldog, don't worry.

The following is addressed to mmarsh -

Tell that to The marines, or in this case to the baby whose head is crushed. No-one needs a law to recognise killing. As i clearly stated - life is snuffed out.

We are a society of laws and we respect those laws whether we agree or not. In the US there are laws in that making killing in certain cases legal. The Death penalty is legal, as is assisted suicided (in certain states), as is abortion. Sometimes killing is a necessary evil, and no it doesn't bother me. There is far worse in the world to get hung up on the trivial matter like abortion.

As for the rest, yes, I am on your case now - all who are concerned with immigration are racists to a degree! What a sad take!

You didn't read what I said did you? I never said all people, just that racism is bigger issue than people give it credit for. Trying to twist around my words will not prove you right.

Listen to me - My country is full of this stuff you peddle, and it eats away at the moral fibre of the nation continually, we become weaker and weaker.

People are sick and tired of being lectured to about their lack of 'morality'. Are you really so pure yourself? I highly doubt it. I have lots of British collegues and I dont them moan about the lack of moral fiber in Britian. People who complain about a societies lack of morality also happen to have the political/social views that society has rejected. Its just sour grapes to me. What I can say is because the UK is now one of the most powerful nation in the World and is now stronger on the world stage than it has been in the past 50 years, that we can dispense the gloomy and unfounded predictions about of the collapse of morality within the British Empire.

America should beware of those who nibble away at its long held principles.
And it would be nice not to lightly sweep aside America's contribution to WW11. They saved Europe then, so that you can now sit comfortably in Paris.

I believe in remembering that past, not dwelling on it. I, like most people wasn't born in 1944. Do you really expect me to dwell on ancient History that I didn't experience myself? I prefer to spend my energy on the present and future. The only person who is sweeping aside his countries contribution in WWII is yourself. I have not heard you mention one thing about your own countries contribution which I find odd because your country suffered more during WWII than mine did.

America is freedom's only hope. If they lose their moral conviction, who will pick up the baton. Not those who cannot be trusted to defend the spark of life.

What makes you think we are so pure? Have you not read about Abu Garib? About Torture? so on and so forth. We are a great nation but we do not wish to be put on a Global Pedestal (I don't think the world wants us on that pedestal either). The US can certainly provide assistance, but ultimately people need to find their own freedom. Its not our job to play world cop, we have our own problems...

Do I detect a sudden dropping of the Holocaust issue?

Yes, but not because of you. As Bulldogg stated we are way off-topic. You're new here, The Mods here don't like when the subject goes too far off as it has now. I am trying to move this thread back to the subject. Start a new thread and I gaurentee you won't find me timid. But I am done here.

We are involved in a Global War against Fundamental Islamic Ideology.
You were late in recognising it. Sep 11 woke the giant. The worst move the enemy ever made. I suppose that you yourself are in denial regarding that as well. The enemy within? Rubbish, I suppose! Your attitude is translated by the enemy as the weak under-belly that will bring about your destruction.

I would be mindful of telling a New Yorker about being in denial or of anything else having to do with 9-11. I witnessed the death of many people I knew that day. Can you say the same? My father also lost a few aqaintences as well, not to mention the firehouse on my street that lost 19 guys from the station house when the building collapsed on top of them. I still remember their faces and the offices of our clients at the Cantor Fitzgerald office, but do not recall their names. There were almost no survivors of the entire 700 person staff. On this subject I probably know most than most people here, because it was my hometown that got attacked, not yours. Remember that, the next time you try and play the 9-11 trump card.

And No, the fact that al-Qaeda overstepped was not lost on us. For example did you know that one of bin Laden son (when he heard about 9-11) abandoned his father in the Afgan Mountains when he heard about it, he thought his dad had brought disaster on them. Nor were we New Yorkers surprised about the attacks, although we didn't imagine the scale. There was the 1993 WTC attacks and several other minor attacks done by various Palestinian groups. Unfortunatly that opportunity is know lost thanks to tragic missteps of foreign policy. According to the CIA, Al-qaeda is now stronger than ever.

With all the misery in the Middle East, something was bound to follow us back here. As long as we meddle in Arab affairs, we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism.

The question for you is, is it too late for Europe? Or, more to the point, is it too late for Europe without the support of the US.

You really have a poor view on Europe don't you? The French have been fighting Islamic Extremists since the 1950's. And they are much more experienced at it that the Americans are. Their anti-terrorism commandos (RAID) are considered the best in the world so much so that your own SAS trains on a regular basis. The fact is the French have not had a successful attack on French soil in about 15 years. They have done this WITHOUT American help.


When the time comes that you are confronted by the dragon - will you tell it your country has a law against it?

Absolutely, because we don't fight monsters by becoming monsters ourselves. We are civilized, they aren't. Thats what makes us better then them.

This is my last post. We are too far Off-topic so I am disengaging before the mods step in.

mmarsh - your ' triviality of abortion' is in fact mankind's greatest error, and you might like to know that your quoted ruling has well passed it's sell-by date, 1971. This is 2007 for pete's sake.

I believe it is you who didn't read what you wrote.

The rest of the tripe you have cast around is not worthy of an answer;
the cliches I am so familiar with are paraded out one at a time. Who questioned your morality? Please don't attempt to set me up against your establishment ; my comments have all been addressed directly to you, and they have involved merely an exchange of personal opinions, that's all. Your morality is you own responsibility, I have no wish to be loaded up with your worn out labels; I can collect that stuff anywhere, cheap.

Was that your best shot?
Well then, I have to go along with the original post you picked up on; that is - you do need a warrior in the White House.

I'm done here on this thread.

Good stuff DelBoy, nice to know there are people like yourself across the pond. I wouldn't take MMarsh's shots to heart mate. Its more like a sign of intelligence on your part when he starts firing cross yer bow.

Thank you kindly Bulldog. And my hand to mmarsh. I just try to fight my corner as hard as I can until the whistle blows. That's the very best thing about a good forum. When I take on the newspapers here , mostly on sport, they can just use the spike, so only one side of the argument is seen!

Apologies for getting involved in American affairs, that was never my intention. Anyway, I have no axe to grind here other than the hopefully good debate. But with some passion of course. God Bless America, bulldog.

Our choice in President has effects in every country so I would hardly call it a matter of internal affairs. I, for one, welcome the input of people who are not American when discussing choices in President. There is no better way for my CONUS bound citizens to know how POTUS is seen and felt by others in foreign lands where things like our "foreign policy" are usually a direct hand in their internal affairs, for better or worse. To be fair, we rarely hold our own tongues when viewing the national leaders of other countries so why would a thinking man expect different of an Englishman, a Scot, a Czech, et al?

No sir, DB, by all means do NOT hold your tongue but instead, broaden the minds of some of our younger members with your wisdom and views, lack of American passport be damned.

Again Bulldog, thanks for the courtesy the forum has shown me.
And just maybe I have a little claim for my attachment to America.
records have recently come to light establishing that right back then one of my grandfathers was, in fact, the friend and sponsor of Christopher Columbus, and spurred him to his journey, providing navigation charts and the first METAL (therefore accurate) astrolabe invention. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes. He negotiated with the King and Queen for support, and went on to do the same for Vasca da Gama. And one more thing - my name is BOSTON. Oh, and my uncle fought Max Schmelling just like Joe Louis. Lastly - I have a personal message sent to me by Mae West. I've been in the White House, The Senate, The Ford Theatre and I have spent time on Governors Island. Now I guess I really am off-thread, just trying to justify my interuption.