Originally Posted by Redleg

OH noes, we're getting closer to the US election again.....
Why can't we all just be friends and talk about pretty flowers instead??



I can't really say that we've got good experiences from the previous elections, but I'll let this one stay open as long as you manage to stay civil in here...

Could I get a shoulder to cry on? I have to live through not one, but two very nasty elections this year FRANCE (April-MAY) and the USA (November). Its my sad duty to report
that the French always criticize then copy everything the Americans do, that now includes their elections which is also getting very ugly.

Aside from something very special coming in August, its going to be a horrible year.

Duty

Welcome home my friend.

Frankly I don't know what to make of Paul. He's a mystery to me. Some of the things he says I like, other things he says really scare me.

There seems to be some very sane views mixed in with some very insane ones. Ron Paul seems to take the extreme view of every position be they leftwing or rightwing. Which is why neither party wants to claim him.

For example: Paul wants to stop us rushing from one battlefield to another and mind our own business (a very wise decision), but the way he wants to do that is to revert back to isolationism (a very bad decision). I actually agree with the GOP view on this weirdly enough...

Another example: Paul wanted small government (a nice goal though I wonder about how feasible it is), Paul solution is to cut the government completely from the IRS, FEMA, HUD, the CIA, etc almost as if he wants to return to the Articles of Confederation, which frankly wasn't the best idea we ever had.

I will say that I like Paul a lot more than some of the other candidates out there, but not enough to vote for. I also agree that he hasn't a chance to win. That's my 2 cents.

Padre

Forgive me, I remember we had a good discussion a few weeks ago but I forget to what you are referring to. I was wrong on a few things as well, I never thought Santorum would have lasted as long as he has. That one got me by surprise.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Welcome home my friend.

Frankly I don't know what to make of Paul. He's a mystery to me. Some of the things he says I like, other things he says really scare me.

There seems to be some very sane views mixed in with some very insane ones. Ron Paul seems to take the extreme view of every position be they leftwing or rightwing. Which is why neither party wants to claim him.

For example: Paul wants to stop us rushing from one battlefield to another and mind our own business (a very wise decision), but the way he wants to do that is to revert back to isolationism (a very bad decision). I actually agree with the GOP view on this weirdly enough...

Another example: Paul wanted small government (a nice goal though I wonder about how feasible it is), Paul solution is to cut the government completely from the IRS, FEMA, HUD, the CIA, etc almost as if he wants to return to the Articles of Confederation, which frankly wasn't the best idea we ever had.

I will say that I like Paul a lot more than some of the other candidates out there, but not enough to vote for. I also agree that he hasn't a chance to win. That's my 2 cents.

Ron Paul & his positions are Libertarian right down the line. They take any position favoring individual liberty & unintrusive Govt. As a result it's like you said, he/they have positions that attract/repel everybody. They also have too much faith in a Laize-Faire style free market economy such as abolishing the FDA. They are not classic isolationists, boad up the doors & windows & ignore the outside world.They are military noninterventionists who believe in trading with Everybody, friend or foe & not doing anything with the military untill the Barbarians are on the border.
Bush: I elected Bush to cut spending & Govt. He did niether, in fact be bloated both, I acused him for years of spending like a Democrat, @ least untill Obama got elected & reminded us how Democrats really spend.

Originally Posted by George

I elected Bush to cut spending & Govt. He did niether, in fact be bloated both, I acused him for years of spending like a Democrat, @ least untill Obama got elected & reminded us how Democrats really spend.

President Bush turned me away from the Republicans and President Obama made me into a Libertarian.

Right now I am pissed off at politics. The debt commission could not even cut spending by 3% and the biggest debate right now is contraceptives for women. I have zero confidence in our government. Business as usual will get us more of the same but all people vote for is business as usual.

I understand Ron Paul has some crazy stances like end the FDA but I admire a guy who is the only candidate that has come up with a plan to tackle our financial crisis. President Bush and the Republicans ran record deficits. President Obama bashed those deficits only to double them and offers no plan get rid of the deficit. $15 trillion in debt and $1 trillion plus yearly deficits is what the Democrats and Republicans have given us.

I don't have faith that our elected officials can get us out of this mess.

Sorry for the ramble.

mmarsh. it is good to be back and I'll send you a PM soon

Originally Posted by Duty Honor Country

President Bush turned me away from the Republicans and President Obama made me into a Libertarian.

Right now I am pissed off at politics. The debt commission could not even cut spending by 3% and the biggest debate right now is contraceptives for women. I have zero confidence in our government. Business as usual will get us more of the same but all people vote for is business as usual.

I understand Ron Paul has some crazy stances like end the FDA but I admire a guy who is the only candidate that has come up with a plan to tackle our financial crisis. President Bush and the Republicans ran record deficits. President Obama bashed those deficits only to double them and offers no plan get rid of the deficit. $15 trillion in debt and $1 trillion plus yearly deficits is what the Democrats and Republicans have given us.

I don't have faith that our elected officials can get us out of this mess.

Sorry for the ramble.

mmarsh. it is good to be back and I'll send you a PM soon

I hear what you are saying, but let me add this:

Its true Obama added to the debt, some of that was carry over from the Bush administration but I wont deny that he spent a great deal as well.

But heres the thing. Most of that spending was the economic stimulus packages. Obama really had no choice but to spend that money. In February 2009 we were a mere inches away from total economic Armaggeddeon. The GOP was pushing Laissez-Faire politics which would have been pure economic suicide in 2009. If the government hadn't interceded we would have been looking at the worst economic situation since the 1920s with unemployment at somewhere between 20-30%. That simply couldn't be allowed to happen under any circumstance.

So increasing the debt was very regrettable, but it was a necessary evil to stave off an even greater one. Once the situation has stabilized (which will take a few more years) we can address to problem of the debt, but to attempt to make radical changes now could very well reverse the recovery we are now in.

And I say this, not being the biggest Obama fan. I voted for him, will probably do so again but I wont hide he has been very disappointing to me on a number of issues such on his reluctance to punish Wall Street for the mess they created. But on the stimulus plan he was absolutely right on. He did not what was popular, but what was necessary. So I can't fault him for that.

Most of the stimulus money seems to have been spent on Porkbarrel projects like roads & bridges that are only of periferal value to real growth of the economy. Then there billions lost on the Aito bailouts....

Obama tries to be a Roosevelt and a Kennedy at the same time. He's very smart but when Roosevelt or Kennedy said something everyone listened, when Obama says something they laugh at him. He cannot make a fist.

Wall street plays according the rules set by the governement. It's the government inaction that's to blame. They should have bailed out Lehman Brothers and propably avoided the financial crisis. A smart bailout can bring lots of money to the government (see the first bailout of Chrysler).

It's going to be a tough presidential election this year and the outcome might be decided by a third party nominee.

Originally Posted by George

Most of the stimulus money seems to have been spent on Porkbarrel projects like roads & bridges that are only of periferal value to real growth of the economy. Then there billions lost on the Aito bailouts....

George

You mean like "Bridges to Nowhere" in Alaska? Care to state some other examples? The fact is the US infrastructure is in shambles and it needs serious repair work is not exactly a secret. Its been a problem since the 1980s.

Construction, especially that of Public works is a key economic indicator. If that sector is vibrant it means the economy is growing. So by admitting that the stimulus money went into construction you just admitted that Obama did grow the economy by putting money into it.

The autobail out was a unparalleled success. Obama saved 1.5 million jobs...AMERICAN JOBS and by doing so staved off an economic depression by keepinh the largest American industry afloat. Both GM and Chrysler have repaid their debt and GM is now the #1 auto company in the world. How on earth can that be interpreted as a failure?

I am not a Democrat, and I am not even that big a Obama fan, but this is why I don't ever plan on voting GOP for the foreseeable future. The knee-jerk reaction to be automatically opposed to everything Obama does, even if it actually benefits America. Like every communist country to date, the GOP puts whats best for the party ahead of the national interest. This is exactly people dislike the GOP more than the Democrats in congress and its why you are going to lose in November.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

George

You mean like "Bridges to Nowhere" in Alaska? Care to state some other examples? The fact is the US infrastructure is in shambles and it needs serious repair work is not exactly a secret. Its been a problem since the 1980s.

Construction, especially that of Public works is a key economic indicator. If that sector is vibrant it means the economy is growing. So by admitting that the stimulus money went into construction you just admitted that Obama did grow the economy by putting money into it.

The autobail out was a unparalleled success. Obama saved 1.5 million jobs...AMERICAN JOBS and by doing so staved off an economic depression by keepinh the largest American industry afloat. Both GM and Chrysler have repaid their debt and GM is now the #1 auto company in the world. How on earth can that be interpreted as a failure?

I am not a Democrat, and I am not even that big a Obama fan, but this is why I don't ever plan on voting GOP for the foreseeable future. The knee-jerk reaction to be automatically opposed to everything Obama does, even if it actually benefits America. Like every communist country to date, the GOP puts whats best for the party ahead of the national interest. This is exactly people dislike the GOP more than the Democrats in congress and its why you are going to lose in November.

No one said Pork was something new, but building roads & bridges is better than paying someone to rake leaves back n forth across a lot, but not much better. Japan was in a decade long recession in the 90s & 11 stimulus packages there didn't help any either, that was ignored. "Key economic indicator" That may be true when States invest in infrasrtucture from good tax revenue from a good economy. Can't be compared to the Fed Govt jusdt giving the States a bunch of money(40% borrowed) & tell them to spend it & then say "Hey look that's a good sigh".
The auto bailout was certainly unprecidented it its utter disregard of Rule of Law & violation of Contract Law. Obama ripped off the Bond holders, they are(were) Secured Creditors with Legal 1st cut @ assestts. Obama illegally cut them out & gave the Unsecured Creditors, his buddys The Unions the assetts instead. We the taxpayers are out 20-25 Billion $ (@ least)on GM alone. GM didn't payoff the loans, they got new loans from the Govt to "payoff" the earlier loans from the Govt. Doubt seriously if GM is #1 ahead of Toyota on any meaningfull long term basis, but considering they got the benifit of 80 billion tax dollars...also unpresidented was the taking of voting stock by the Govt. I suspect the Secured Creditors wouldn't have put GM or Chrysler out of business, but done a restructuring that would have been better in the long run.
Do you want to compare Stevens Pork (bridge to nowhere) to Rob't Byrd's Pork?

Originally Posted by Duty Honor Country

President Bush turned me away from the Republicans and President Obama made me into a Libertarian.

Right now I am pissed off at politics. The debt commission could not even cut spending by 3% and the biggest debate right now is contraceptives for women. I have zero confidence in our government. Business as usual will get us more of the same but all people vote for is business as usual.

I understand Ron Paul has some crazy stances like end the FDA but I admire a guy who is the only candidate that has come up with a plan to tackle our financial crisis. President Bush and the Republicans ran record deficits. President Obama bashed those deficits only to double them and offers no plan get rid of the deficit. $15 trillion in debt and $1 trillion plus yearly deficits is what the Democrats and Republicans have given us.

I don't have faith that our elected officials can get us out of this mess.

Agree, agree, agree!

I feel like no matter who is elected we are SOL. Our government is more interested in money (money for the personal pocketbook) than they are about doing what is right and how to dig us out of this hole.

I'm sure that if Romney gets elected there won't be any self professed Communists in his Inner Circle, unlike the current occupant.