Porous Borders

[EDDIELAING]

IMHO, it seems to me, that the political HACKS whom have taken control of Washington, ought to prove to the American people that they can, and will, stop the flow of ILLEGAL Immigrants into our Country before they ever consider giving any kind of amnesty to those that break the law to get here.

It just seems that they (politicians), once again, want to put the cart before the horse. (the Reagan Administration made similar mistakes in the 80's)

Why haven't they learned from mistake of past Administrations? I don't know, but the insanity of it all drives me nuts.
:shoothea:

 

[Gator]

Call me CRAZY, but, it seems to me that the political HACKS whom have taken control of Washington, ought to prove to the American people that they can, and will, stop the flow of ILLEGAL Immigrants into our Country before they ever consider giving any kind of amnesty to those that break the law to get here.

It just seems to me that they (politicians), once again, want to put the cart before the horse. (the Reagan Administration made similar mistakes in the 80's)

Why haven't they learned from mistake of past Administrations? I don't know, but the insanity of it all drives me nuts.
:shoothea:

Seems Politicians in America like having Slaves, seems they always have, and it seems they always will.

As long as the people who control the people in Washington D.C. still have a need for a lower class of individual in America, a person below a Citizen, a subhuman, there will always be such a class allowed to come into America on the sly.

Put in a live Minefield (in between 2 fences) along the entire Southern Border and the problem with the Southern Border will be taken care of, because those coming across the Border will use the Legal Crossings, or they will die in the Minefield.

I believe such a Minefield should be the price paid before any such amnesty is granted this time, because as the facts show the amnesty last time did not solve the problem it only made it worse.

 

[MontyB]

The problem is that minefields are notoriously ineffective I recommend a moat and a mess of alligators.

Still I have a question, how many "illegal immigrants" are actually entering the USA via the land route compared to the number coming in via other methods.
Lets face it throwing up fences and planting land mines would probably be a less effective method of control if 95% of the immigrants are coming through LAX.

 

[EDDIELAING]

The minefields and Fences seem to keep the Cubans out of GTMO!

The problem is that minefields are notoriously ineffective I recommend a moat and a mess of alligators.

Still I have a question, how many "illegal immigrants" are actually entering the USA via the land route compared to the number coming in via other methods.
Lets face it throwing up fences and planting land mines would probably be a less effective method of control if 95% of the immigrants are coming through LAX.

Unfortunately, I do not have those stats on hand at the moment. But, as I am a long time resident of the City of San Diego (since 1970), I can tell you, IMHO, hat the vast majority of the Illegals are walking right accross the border. I have seen it with my own two eye's, time and time again.

 

[MontyB]

Having lived in Arizona for for several years I would agree that the number of Mexicans jumping the border would make up a sizable proportion of the illegal immigrants entering the country but then I also imagine other South Americans are also a large chunk of the problem and I would be surprised if they are hiking through Mexico to get there.

Basically I am just saying that perhaps it would be best to figure out the most common method of entry (it may well be the Mexican border) and spend the cash on solving that problem before moving down the list.

 

[Gator]

The problem is that minefields are notoriously ineffective I recommend a moat and a mess of alligators.

Still I have a question, how many "illegal immigrants" are actually entering the USA via the land route compared to the number coming in via other methods.
Lets face it throwing up fences and planting land mines would probably be a less effective method of control if 95% of the immigrants are coming through LAX.

Well one has to start somewhere.
Sure, I like the Alligator idea, the Gators would clean up the mess by eating the Illegals, but the Gators would still need to be fenced in, so as to keep them inside their Area of Operations and thus keep Americans safe from hungry Gators.
On the flipside though seeing dead laying inside a Minefield would tend to have a physiological effect and get ones point across.

America is a Nation at War, anyone in the Nation Illegally should tried as a Spy, and then once found guilty be shot as a Spy, and, thats if they come across the Border to the South, or the Border to the North, or they come in though LAX, so on and so forth. The only difference being the people working at LAX in Customs would also need to be rounded up and once tried and found guilty, shot for obviously assisting Spies coming into the Nation.

 

[MontyB]

Well if you are a nation at war then perhaps you should tell your border agents as I managed to cross back into the USA from Mexico through normal border crossings and never received an inquiry (actually I have had it happen twice now) compared to airport security the border guys don't seem to give a damn.

Seriously it gets a bit embarrassing to have to find someone and inform them you are a foreign national.

 

[Ted]

I always think that if these illegals used their enormous inventiveness to produce something new, they'd be millionairs in no time!
In other words; they will always find a new way and the IS always will have to react on it. The illegals have the action and the IS has to re-act on their initiative. And these easy avoidable things as mines..... piece of cake. If you want to upperhand you'd better think of something aweful clever... and that can be a problem.

Honestly Gator, shooting them as spies... Do you have any idea what that would do with the US. If your problem with illegals is because they are bad for business, well, then you have another thing coming. The worldwide ban on the US would do them ten times as much damage... And then there are a whole bunch of things called laws and treaties forbidding this....

 

[Gator]

Honestly Gator, shooting them as spies... Do you have any idea what that would do with the US. If your problem with illegals is because they are bad for business, well, then you have another thing coming. The worldwide ban on the US would do them ten times as much damage... And then there are a whole bunch of things called laws and treaties forbidding this....

Well, it is my belief that after a handful were shot as Spies the rest would fall right in line and leave the United States of America.

Last I heard at least some of the Fort Dix would be bombers came into the United States across the Southern Border.
And, don't think for a minute that I have not noticed how Muslim Extremists from the Middle East tend to look an awful lot like Mexicans once they shave.

The United States has a long history of killing people viewed as a threat to the United States of America..... just ask the American Indians.

The United States of America also has a history of forcibly moving people viewed as a threat to the United States of America, right or wrong.... just ask the Japanese Americans who lived in the United States during the Second World War.

I have a problem with Illegals because they are Illegal.
I believe US Businesses will weather any storm because of Illegals not spending their money in the United States, and, I believe the United States will fair better in the long run.
I believe all U.S. Companies across the Border in Mexico should be closed, or said Company be redesignated as a Foreign Company, with Tariffs due upon Import of the product into the United States of America.
As for the World Wide Ban on the United States of America..... I really would like to see that action take place, starting with China, and working down the chain from there.
Seeing how the United States drives the World Economy such an action would, to say the least, be interesting to watch, and, even if the United States were to be destroyed Economically, well the United States has the power to end pretty much all life on Earth, and in the game of who gets to live longest on Earth, I vote Americans every time. So before the United States of America goes quietly into the night because of some World Wide Alliance against the United States of America, I personally believe everyone else should already be gone.

I do not believe in a One World Society, Open Borders, or Free Trade.
I do however believe in Borders, Allies, and people following the Law.
You know what’s funny about people making pronouncements about how Americans think, and what Americans will do?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_re_us/immigration_texas

Those against a regulation banning Illegals in Farmers Branch Texas from being treated just like Americans or those in America legally pushed for a Vote on the regulation, and, lo and behold 68% of Americans voted to uphold the regulation.
Now the Illegals and their allies in the United States of America are pushing to have the regulation stopped using the American Court System and strangely enough the United States Constitution.
I believe they will lose in the end, because for the most part Americans care about the United States of America, and only the United States of America.
Plus the Illegals do not have a legal leg to stand on in the US Court System on this issue, they are not allowed to be in the United States of America to begin with.



Monty, I cannot help it if you look European and Mexicans look... well, more Hispanic.
Personally, I blame the fair skin European Settlers who took New Zealand off the Indigs there.
Had the Spanish settled New Zealand, and brought, then interbred with the Indians of Southern North America and Central America on New Zealand...... and had the climate in New Zealand been more conducive towards a darker complexion, well, you may have more trouble coming across.
Also, as I have said before, there may be some in the United States who believe (mistakenly) that New Zealand is ours anyway..... sort of like Guam, and, we just gave back the Islands of Micronesia not very long ago.

 

[MontyB]

Monty, I cannot help it if you look European and Mexicans look... well, more Hispanic.
Personally, I blame the fair skin European Settlers who took New Zealand off the Indigs there.
Had the Spanish settled New Zealand, and brought, then interbred with the Indians of Southern North America and Central America on New Zealand...... and had the climate in New Zealand been more conducive towards a darker complexion, well, you may have more trouble coming across.
Also, as I have said before, there may be some in the United States who believe (mistakenly) that New Zealand is ours anyway..... sort of like Guam, and, we just gave back the Islands of Micronesia not very long ago.

So you are saying you only have a problem with the Hispanic looking illegals?

Personally I believe if you are going to put in border controls, check points and agents then you damn well should ensure that they do their job properly (oddly enough like the Canadians do), hell if they wont take the time to check someone driving through their own checkpoint then how much effort are they putting into stopping people sneaking past it?

As far as those who believe New Zealand to be "part" of the USA well sadly that is perhaps an indication of an education system sorely lacking in an understanding of the world that with US isolationism will simply pass it by.

 

[Gator]

So you are saying you only have a problem with the Hispanic looking illegals?

Personally I believe if you are going to put in border controls, check points and agents then you damn well should ensure that they do their job properly (oddly enough like the Canadians do), hell if they wont take the time to check someone driving through their own checkpoint then how much effort are they putting into stopping people sneaking past it?

As far as those who believe New Zealand to be "part" of the USA well sadly that is perhaps an indication of an education system sorely lacking in an understanding of the world that with US isolationism will simply pass it by.

I have an inherent problem with all who come into my Nation, no matter the reason. I have a much bigger problem with those who come into my Nation Illegally.
I believe that all should be stopped and checked the same, I'm just making a judgment as to why it is you cross without being looked at.
As for the education system in the United States of America.....

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

Americans rank 25th out of 40 Nations tested, ranking behind "not only Belgium but also Poland, the Czech Republic and South Korea".
As for isolationism, well as an added bonus, with the advent of the Internet today’s Schools can keep up with World events while at the same time never coming into direct contact with anyone living outside the Nation.
Which will be nothing new, as I seem to recall we learned many things in School without the Internet, and without ever coming into direct contact with Foreigners.
Once better leaders are put into office in Washington D.C. very tough standards can be put into place with the penalty such as, but not limited to, expulsion from School for those failing to perform, said Students can be placed in Special Schools kept away from those keeping up with the standards.
For far too long the United States has dumbed down the rest of the Nation so as to be on some sort of equal footing with the slower of the flock, so as to not make the idiots in School feel bad.
Way back when I attended Public School those deemed Retarded were kept away from the rest of us in Special Classes, now those deemed Retarded sit in the same Classroom as everyone else in many a Public School in the United States of America.
I believe the slow need to be culled from the herd for the betterment of the Nation as a whole.
Once the Illegals are taken care of in the Nation the slower American Citizens can be used for jobs now being done by Illegal Aliens.

 

[MontyB]

I see and you think think shutting yourself off from the world will provide a panacea to these problems?
Also what is the point in retaining internet links, if you are not dealing with the outside world then chances are they wont want to deal with you hell I will bet dollars to donuts that if you guys stop buying our products the company will be gone from your shores in hours and never look back.

I have an inherent problem with all who come into my Nation, no matter the reason.

Umm can I ask what this problem would be?
I travel to the US for two reasons:
1) The wife is or was (not sure what she wants to call herself) American and she likes to visit family and oddly enough they seem happy that we do visit.
2) The company I work for employs a bunch of Americans and as such I am expected to keep in contact with them.

Oddly enough I have yet to run into anyone that has issues with this, you may be the first and I would love to hear the reasons.

Once the Illegals are taken care of in the Nation the slower American Citizens can be used for jobs now being done by Illegal Aliens.

I don't what it is about this statement but I have a strange urge to throw my arm out and shout "Sieg Heil" but anyway in an attempt to maintain the theory that you are serious how about this, the reason these jobs are being done by illegals is perhaps because they cant get Americans to do them.

 

[Gator]

I see and you think think shutting yourself off from the world will provide a panacea to these problems?
Also what is the point in retaining internet links, if you are not dealing with the outside world then chances are they wont want to deal with you hell I will bet dollars to donuts that if you guys stop buying our products the company will be gone from your shores in hours and never look back.


Umm can I ask what this problem would be?
I travel to the US for two reasons:
1) The wife is or was (not sure what she wants to call herself) American and she likes to visit family and oddly enough they seem happy that we do visit.
2) The company I work for employs a bunch of Americans and as such I am expected to keep in contact with them.

Oddly enough I have yet to run into anyone that has issues with this, you may be the first and I would love to hear the reasons.


I don't what it is about this statement but I have a strange urge to throw my arm out and shout "Sieg Heil" but anyway in an attempt to maintain the theory that you are serious how about this, the reason these jobs are being done by illegals is perhaps because they cant get Americans to do them.

You seem to believe that the well being of the United States of America hinges on the fact that New Zealand as you know it remains on the face of the Earth?
Now who it is that leads a sheltered life?.... the Mouse that Roared comes to mind.
You believe that if the United States of America closed its borders and ended all Free Trade that the United States of America would be destroyed?
Do you believe that the United States of America got to be the World Leader because the other Nations pulled our name out of a hat with all the other Nations mixed in?
I do not know what Natural Resource New Zealand has that the United States of America does not have.... tell me, what is it you can do better than America can in the United States of America?
I'll hazard a guess and say it isn't state of the art Military Weapons.
I believe in helping ones own people, not other Nations, well.... not before all of ones own people are taken care of, I believe you should be proud of who you are and where you live, and view your Nation as the best Nation on Earth, not that we are all the same on Earth.
I believe that you need to worry about you Nation and let others worry about their own Nation.
I do not see why you come to my Nation to inspect workers of your Company because I do not believe that Foreign Companies should be allowed within my Borders.
Your wife can visit her family, and you can accompany her, it is legal.... hell, she can live here for all I care, and you can apply for Citizenship if you wish.
I do not like Foreigners walking around my Nation, it is a personal opinion I have.... in the back of my mind I think said Foreigners are looking to take something I have and or make the United States of America less of a unique Nation and more of something in a "New World Order".
Since I cannot pick and choose who it up to what I place everyone in the same category, but I do not try and block any Freedom of Movement of said Foreigners in my Nation, but, I view such people as a guest in my Nation. To pick and choose would make me a Racist in some peoples eyes.
I'm a fervent Nationalist, and I do not see myself changing any time soon.

As for your statement that there are jobs that are below Americans in America, I believe that there are Citizens who will do all kinds of Jobs in America.... the trouble is that Companies do not want to pay Americans what Americans view some jobs are worth, they would rather hire Illegals to do the work for less money.

As for those slower than others..... well, way I see it one is left with 2 choices:
1. The Slow can be put into positions equal to their abilities.
2. The rest can be brought down to the level of the Slow so everyone is more on equal footing.

Unless you believe that the Slower can be advanced to the level of everyone else?
Perhaps the Schools should be tasked with the job of assisting those going to School in America to achieve their fullest potential.

Or do I just walk into a Hospital and say I want to be a Neurosurgeon, and ask them where my Uniform and Hospital ID is, and when do I see my first patient?
Of course since I'm not smart enough to be a Neurosurgeon all other Neurosurgeons will need to be brought down to my level.

 

[MontyB]

I think you misunderstand me I am not saying that New Zealand is important to the USA or anyone else for that matter I am saying that the world will survive without the USA if you want to stick your heads in the sand as like people no nation is indispensable.

Sadly for you though and happily for the more realistic Americans is the knowledge that you will never get your way because pretty much anyone with an ounce of knowledge knows that without foreign trade and investment in the USA (as with all other countries) your economy and standard of living will disappear and you that may well be sneaking through minefields into Mexico while someone named Caiman posts about porous borders.

I do not like Foreigners walking around my Nation, it is a personal opinion I have.... in the back of my mind I think said Foreigners are looking to take something I have and or make the United States of America less of a unique Nation and more of something in a "New World Order".

Once again I feel the urge to shout sieg heil and I seriously hope we stop before you decide to spout theories on eugenics, but hows this for a theory the only unique thing about the USA is called a native American everything else is just a mish-mash of nations just like the rest of the world.

I do not see why you come to my Nation to inspect workers of your Company because I do not believe that Foreign Companies should be allowed within my Borders.

Yes and we make them all stand to attention and sing the company song while saluting the the New Zealand flag or we flog them and throw them out the door... (sorry the tone of your post seemed to give this impression), I don't come to the USA to inspect workers I come to interact with colleagues just as they come to New Zealand we learn, we train and we all improve.

 

[Gator]

I think you misunderstand me I am not saying that New Zealand is important to the USA or anyone else for that matter I am saying that the world will survive without the USA if you want to stick your heads in the sand as like people no nation is indispensable.

Sadly for you though and happily for the more realistic Americans is the knowledge that you will never get your way because pretty much anyone with an ounce of knowledge knows that without foreign trade and investment in the USA (as with all other countries) your economy and standard of living will disappear and you that may well be sneaking through minefields into Mexico while someone named Caiman posts about porous borders.

Once again I feel the urge to shout sieg heil and I seriously hope we stop before you decide to spout theories on eugenics, but hows this for a theory the only unique thing about the USA is called a native American everything else is just a mish-mash of nations just like the rest of the world.



Yes and we make them all stand to attention and sing the company song while saluting the the New Zealand flag or we flog them and throw them out the door... (sorry the tone of your post seemed to give this impression), I don't come to the USA to inspect workers I come to interact with colleagues just as they come to New Zealand we learn, we train and we all improve.

The United States of America is rich in Natural Resources, and the World Economy is a shell game kept going by the mega-rich, nothing more.

We have more stuff than most, and the potential for even more, so I believe we would fair just fine, while the rest of the World tried to make due as best they could without us, but I'm not put in charge of anything on a National Level, so I do not see my wants coming to pass.

 

[Ted]

Wow, you two went at it I see! What was this post about again? Oh yeah, porous borders. I have read a lot of good and awkward things and I reckon that you wont find an easy compromise.... Before we end this post, can one of you come up with a solid plan to stop illegal immigration. In the other border-post I had an idea: raise the standard of living in Latin America. Why would one want to leave if he can live well in his own native land? But some isolationists deemed this stupid. Why take care of others? And the immigration hasn't let off one bit!

 

[MontyB]

Wow, you two went at it I see! What was this post about again? Oh yeah, porous borders. I have read a lot of good and awkward things and I reckon that you wont find an easy compromise.... Before we end this post, can one of you come up with a solid plan to stop illegal immigration. In the other border-post I had an idea: raise the standard of living in Latin America. Why would one want to leave if he can live well in his own native land? But some isolationists deemed this stupid. Why take care of others? And the immigration hasn't let off one bit!

The really funny thing here is that despite appearances I am very pro limited immigration and secure borders but I am not an isolationist and I really have issues with nationalists and isolationists tend to amuse me as they seem to have forgotten this is 2007 not 1907 how can isolationism work in a world where we can be anywhere on it in less than 24 hours.

As far as raising the standard of living to reduce peoples desire to immigrate (this doesn't necessarily have to be a Latin American thing) well its a nice idea but it has a few flaws.
1) Raising a nations standard of living is not easy raising it for entire continents is damn near impossible.
2) Why should we? I completely agree that it is the answer to the problem long term but there is not a country on earth that doesn't need to get their own **** in order and support their own people before they start bailing other nations out of the mire they have made for themselves.

Simply put you cannot stop illegal immigration because where there is a will there is a way no matter what the cost, I am personally of the opinion that the best way to minimise the problem is to do all you can at your border to stop people sneaking in and put a lot of time and effort (not necessarily money) into developing leadership in the third world and through this destroy the corruption that permeates these places thus giving them a chance to develop on their own.

 

[Gator]

If Employers who knowingly hire Illegals were Sentenced to 10 years in Federal Prison then the Illegals would have no place to work. If Landlords were Sentenced to the same for renting to Illegals they (Illegals) would have no place to live.

It can be stopped, I believe it must be stopped. Just about anything dealing with humans in the Natural Realm is possible... one just has to make the punishment for bad behavior so adverse that people will not want to risk getting caught.

For instance.... Treason in the United States of America is rare, because the United States Code states:

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Now, make the penalty for knowingly hiring and knowingly renting to an Illegal something that Americans do not wish to risk and there will be no reason for Illegals to come into the United States of America.... well, except to do bad things, and then Law Enforcement can take over, and shoot them.

If I had it in my power I'd put the Military on the Border, put in a Minefield, and make Law to where Americans were safe from Illegal Immigration, anyone who did not like it would of course be free to leave America, or vote to open the Borders back up and see who wins the day at the Ballot Box.

The United States of America put a man on the moon, so just about anything dealing with Humans on this Earth is a possibility.

 

[Ted]

It can be stopped, I believe it must be stopped. Just about anything dealing with humans in the Natural Realm is possible... one just has to make the punishment for bad behavior so adverse that people will not want to risk getting caught.

If this were true then there would be no murder, would there? People kill eachother for much less gain (just some money instead of a future) and they receive the death penalty. IMO this is the ultimate penalty you can give and there is still plenty of murder isn't there.

 

[Gator]

How many CEO's would want to risk 10 years in Federal Prison for knowingly hiring an Illegal? A Company which has many Illegals could land the person in charge in Prison for a few hundred years.

I'd say it is a risk Employers would not wish to take, but there is a sure fire way to find out.... and that's give it a try.