Originally Posted by senojekips

Mmarsh, your argument is not without some merit, but after all is said and done, it must be remembered that the Military forces are not run as a democracy. However that does not mean that the members are all of the one view, politically or in most other ways. I must admit that generally they treat civvies somewhat warily but often this is as a result of the treatment they received from the civilian population over the years. Also having been in the services they get to see things that civilians never see and rarely hear about, some of these experiences shape their personalities in ways that give rise to the average civilians perceptions of who and what a Service member is. Civilians see the result but rarely if ever comprehend the underlying causes.

The one thing worth remembering, is that serving and ex-serving members have seen both sides of the coin, many people seem to forget that we have also been civilians.

I have been a civilian for 48 of my 60 years, if anyone feels that my service attitude shows through, that should tell people that obviously those 12 years were a unique learning experience that I value highly. No one forced these views upon me, it was a decision I made myself, and I should imagine that is the case for most ex-service persons.

I have noticed that even ex-service persons who disliked their time in the services, are almost without exception, proud of having served whether it be as a Staff Officer or Clod buster.

Yes, Service personnel are different, there's no argument there, but I feel that they are still highly individualistic, you only have to read some of the posts on this Forum to see that. Also like most people, the person you meet on the 'net often has little semblance to that person in real life.

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When my father was a young U.S Army Lieutenant in the early 1960s the Army was totally apolitical. That is no longer the case. The US military has been used to indoctrinate people into far right ideologies. For example they still play Rush Limbaugh, Dr. Laura and FOX NEWS over Armed Forces Radio + Television. They do NOT allow liberal\democrat views from being aired, such as Ed Schultz who was denied access in 2005.

Furthermore there has been a tolerance for far-right evangelical Christian groups (and other far right public\private interest groups) to become associated with the military and finally there is a unhealthy relationship between Republican politicians and the DOD. (Yes the democrats have got their photo-ops too), but not to the levels we have seen politicans get to 'play' soldiers. Bush's 2003 'Mission Accomplished' melodrama is case in point.

And its all a attempt to instill a rightwing political ideology into the military, where it absolutely doesn't belong. A friend of mine went into the USMC a bleeding heart liberal and came out a far right conservative 3 years later. I seriously doubt he had a 'magical' transformation, He was indoctrinated.

I have never heard of civvies mistreating soldiers except during the Vietnam war (which was disgraceful). If the military or ex-military think they are treated badly its most likely because they not adapted back to 'civilian life' -they threat people as if they were all in the service.

Look at this Forum. I have had some military and ex-military talk to me as if a was a 1st day recruit and they were the Drill Sargent, and then they were the ones who got angry and upset because they were unaccustomed to be told I told to 'stick it' in the place where the sun don't shine.

Just yesterday another poster on this very thread someone made a rather arrogant and rude insinuations about 'civvies' (suggesting they didn't know anything about professionalism) that was meant as a sneer to those who have never served. So I would say there is far more evidence that says military or ex-military that are ruder to civilians than visa versa. Keep reading this forum if you don't believe me. I don't know of anyone (at least of the 'regulars' or 'non-radicals') here that has ever publicly insulted those who have served. The reverse on the other hand...

I think that your views are quite typical of many civilians and as I said earlier, not completely without a basis in truth.

When I left the Royal Australian Navy, I joined the Merchant Marine in Australia and as such had to join the Seaman's Union. Boy! Did I cop it in the neck, being accused of being a right wing extremist, and guilty of every crime against mankind since I was born.

It probably took four years for me to be completely accepted for what I was. I never changed, and neither did the other Union members with whom I worked, but somewhere along the line people learned that I was "my own man" and not such a bad person at that. I judged everything on it's merits and was quite prepared to stand up at a "hostile" meeting and make my point giving the reasons why this was my view. One thing that they learnt about me is that I am always as good as my word and will stand by my views to the death unless someone can convince me that I am wrong (and it has been done on numerous occasions). I also am a very reliable backstop in a fight, be it physical or verbal, not necessarily always good at it, but I give it my absolute best.

I feel that my service experience has certainly shaped my attitudes and made me the way that I am to a degree, but I strongly doubt that they have changed my moral or political point of view.

I am known for my "pig headedness" and I am one of those persons who if I feel that someone is trying to massage my ego or change my basic beliefs I start to "back up". When i say "basic" beliefs, I refer to such things as my judgement on right and wrong and good manners etc,... nothing so petty as politics.

For the record my personal quote on politics is, "The country is going to hell in a hatbox for the want of more Government and less politics" and that's a Spike Jones original

I did 12 years as a member of the RAN and 26 years as a merchant seaman, in two jobs that most persons would agree are totally at odds with one another politically. I ended up being highly respected by my Union and was made a life member on my retirement, something of which I am very proud. There is only one thing of which I am more proud and that is the fact that I managed to take the best out of both of them without compromising my own morals, and in doing so earned the respect of my fellow workers.

There are people on this forum that would label me as Right wing and there are also occasions that persons would accuse me of being left wing. The truth is that I am both. I hear people say that one is mutually exclusive of the other,.... not true, both views have good points and bad, all you have to do is to abide by what you know to be right "at the time". (Things do change).

I'm sorry if this has turned into a bit of a ramble, but I hope that it helps make my point, that service and ex-service persons can't just be put in a box and labelled one way or the other, we too are individuals.

Originally Posted by philam15

whoa whoa whoa, I don't think he's trying to say us "civvies" are not able to fill the job, I think he's just saying that military people would be more apt to crack the whip more, meaning a tighter ship, opposed to non-military people.

But he is wrong, us "civvies" cannot be classified that we cannot be strick JUST because we havn't been in the military. DO NOT LUMP!

You go girl

I think you are quite correct, that military attitudes can get in the way of alot of things.

Moderator's job is more than just your background of a person its their whole attitude.

I don't think a hard rightwing or hard leftwing person is required.

In my humble opinion I think you need a person drop dead in the center.

I don't think it should be a question of miltary status or not, I think it needs to be a question of fairness.

Anyway off to make coffee

Originally Posted by Kiwi

You go girl

I think you are quite correct, that military attitudes can get in the way of alot of things.

Moderator's job is more than just your background of a person its their whole attitude.

I don't think a hard rightwing or hard leftwing person is required.

In my humble opinion I think you need a person drop dead in the center.

I don't think it should be a question of miltary status or not, I think it needs to be a question of fairness.

Anyway off to make coffee

With your new kettle? I'll have a white with one sweetener if you don't mind.

Maybe I'm biased, although I try not to be, but I feel there are many persons both service and ex service who are very fair, I met many while in the services. After all servicemen are really just civvies in uniform.

All of the above not withstanding, I must also admit that the experience of being "tossed in at the deep end" does tend to shape the views of service people somewhat. The services do encourage people to stand on their own two feet, sometimes rather roughly, but the result is the same and not necessarily bad.

Like many persons who have had some very intense formative experience, service persons are sometimes less than tolerant with those who have not had that experience, and it is that experience that forms the bond found between service persons all over the world. This forum is a good example of that.

Like I've said all along, Yes, we are different, but that does not necessarily mean that we are bad people, totally without socially redeeming features.

As in all things, there are exceptions though.

Originally Posted by senojekips

With your new kettle? I'll have a white with one sweetener if you don't mind.

Maybe I'm biased, although I try not to be, but I feel there are many persons both service and ex service who are very fair, I met many while in the services. After all servicemen are really just civvies in uniform.

All of the above not withstanding, I must also admit that the experience of being "tossed in at the deep end" does tend to shape the views of service people somewhat. The services do encourage people to stand on their own two feet, sometimes rather roughly, but the result is the same and not necessarily bad.

Like many persons who have had some very intense formative experience, service persons are sometimes less than tolerant with those who have not had that experience, and it is that experience that forms the bond found between service persons all over the world. This forum is a good example of that.

Like I've said all along, Yes, we are different, but that does not necessarily mean that we are bad people, totally without socially redeeming features.

As in all things, there are exceptions though.

Yeah I got a new kettle, white plastic thing but it does a job.

A cuppa coming your way honey I know it says coffee but its the only cup I had

I agree servicemen and women, and civvies are equal, I was saying choice based on that is wrong.

LOL altho I have all military mods bar two, that I chose to work with.

But for a forum on politcal items, I don't see the need.

Franky I don't know who would be the best. Bit age does play a role, someone under 30 I wouldn't like to see being a mod.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Just yesterday another poster on this very thread someone made a rather arrogant and rude insinuations about 'civvies' (suggesting they didn't know anything about professionalism) that was meant as a sneer to those who have never served. So I would say there is far more evidence that says military or ex-military that are ruder to civilians than visa versa. Keep reading this forum if you don't believe me. I don't know of anyone (at least of the 'regulars' or 'non-radicals') here that has ever publicly insulted those who have served. The reverse on the other hand...

I voluntarily put my ass and life on the line. I do not and will not ever render the same amount of respect to another human being who has not also done so as I do to those who have served. I'm sorry if this upsets you but such is life. In my book you might be a wonderful person but you will never receive the same respect I render to Team Infidel, Dtop, TomTom, Senojekips, Aussienick, 5.56, Implicature, Marinerhodes, 13th Redneck, Redneck, 03USMC, Chief Bones et al. Even we aren't "friends" as the case may be, they have my respect for the simple fact they have put their very lives at risk for the freedoms so many enjoy. Nothing will ever change that. In my mind those who have worn the uniform have a greater claim to the rights granted every citizen and those who have not served are in point of fact, second class citizens because they are eating on someone else's dime.

Originally Posted by bulldogg

I voluntarily put my ass and life on the line. I do not and will not ever render the same amount of respect to another human being who has not also done so as I do to those who have served. I'm sorry if this upsets you but such is life. In my book you might be a wonderful person but you will never receive the same respect I render to Team Infidel, Dtop, TomTom, Senojekips, Aussienick, 5.56, Implicature, Marinerhodes, 13th Redneck, Redneck, 03USMC, Chief Bones et al. Even we aren't "friends" as the case may be, they have my respect for the simple fact they have put their very lives at risk for the freedoms so many enjoy. Nothing will ever change that. In my mind those who have worn the uniform have a greater claim to the rights granted every citizen and those who have not served are in point of fact, second class citizens because they are eating on someone else's dime.

The USA is not SPARTA, we are a State that has a Military, not a Military State. If we were, we would be no better than North Korea. As an American you ought to know that the very idea of a 2nd class citizenry, is an affront to to the very the US Constitution you swore as a soldier to defend. BTW, soldiers are NOT the only ones who put their a** on the line. I don't see firemen or policemen demanding special attention. If you joined the military because you thought it would give some extra 'privileges' or 'rights' as a citizens, not only are you wrong, you should probably not have joined. As a ex-servicemen, You are entitled to nothing more than a "Thank You", which I would gladly express to you. But thats all you get.

The fact you feel closer to those who served than those who didn't is not the issue. I understand that, as both my father and Grandfather were the same way. But that doesn't mean you can go out and deliberately or insult or sneer at those simply because they chose not to serve, -not without consequence.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

The USA is not SPARTA, we are a State that has a Military, not a Military State. If we were, we would be no better than North Korea. As an American you ought to know that the very idea of a 2nd class citizenry, is an affront to to the very the US Constitution you swore as a soldier to defend. BTW, soldiers are NOT the only ones who put their a** on the line. I don't see firemen or policemen demanding special attention. If you joined the military because you thought it would give some extra 'privileges' or 'rights' as a citizens, not only are you wrong, you should probably not have joined. As a ex-servicemen, You are entitled to nothing more than a "Thank You", which I would gladly express to you. But thats all you get.

The fact you feel closer to those who served than those who didn't is not the issue. I understand that, as both my father and Grandfather were the same way. But that doesn't mean you can go out and deliberately or insult or sneer at those simply because they chose not to serve, -not without consequence.

Funny, you have been labled as not a full Citizen of the United States of America, well, you and over 90% of the Population of the United States of America, sure hope word does not get out, as funding for the Department of Veterans Affairs could suffer.

As for myself, I look at someone who did not Retire after giving 20+ years, still with all their limbs, and or all their limbs in good working order, with both eyes, with all their innards intact, talking about what is "owed" them, and I think to myself..... gee, must have really been rough..... not.

Now, do you see the inherent problem (besides not being able to get things wrapped up in Iraq and Afghanistan) of having a "Professional" Military?

I see talk in a bad light from time to time about Draftees on this Board, well, knowing quite a few from World War II, Korea, and Vietnam, I can tell you that in many cases they did far more, and asked for far less in return.

Never asked for special attention nor did I say I deserved it now did I. Show me where I said that, ever.

Read my post again... I said "IN MY MIND"... in other words I am acknowledging it is not a fact but rather simply how I see it. My opinion as it were.

The entire post is about what I afford others, not single ****ing word about what I expect or want from others. In fact I don't want a goddamn thing from you. If you see THAT as an insult or a sneer you've got problems.

As for 2nd class citizens being unAmerican... welcome to my world. I had to fight for months to get my son his citizenship because he was born OCONUS so don't get me started on that b******t. And now they won't let me enter the country with my wife until I have 125% of the mother****ing ANNUAL poverty line for a family of three in cash in the god damn bank. If that isn't treating me and mine like second or third rate citizens I don't know what the **** is. Guess its Constitutional and all since the founding fathers had no trouble with slavery and all that it encompasses.

"Liberty and justice for all" my ass.

There is such a thing as being humble and people might just respect you more for being humble...just saying since you know my opinion doesn't really count, being unimportant and all