Originally Posted by Rabs

I always found it cute how there planes look so similar to ours.

And the Russians stole the..... Mig-27? From a Canadian design that was called Aero or something like that.

Originally Posted by SwordFish_13

Hi,

Ya just wait PAK-FA in on the way

Just because Russia can design it doesn't mean they can afford it. And even if they can afford it, doesn't mean it's going to work, look at the Kursk.

Hi,

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Just because Russia can design it doesn't mean they can afford it.

That's what we Indians are here For ...... they have the Design we have the $ ......... lets roll


Peace
-=SF_13=-

The problem I have with Russian "stuff" is that its much like the soviet union itself. Looks pretty on paper and is pretty darn impressive at first glance, then it turns out to be an utter peice of garbage.

Originally Posted by Rabs

The problem I have with Russian "stuff" is that its much like the soviet union itself. Looks pretty on paper and is pretty darn impressive at first glance, then it turns out to be an utter peice of garbage.

Y'know, I could make a totally derogatory comment based on that, but since I don't feel like getting banned, I won't.

Man, looking at that diagram of the PAK FA worries me -- not so much because of the capabilities, but can you imagine being part of an F-22 flight and getting into the phone booth with a flight of PAK FA's? You better pray that the IFF is working, otherwise you might not be sure if you're shooting a bad guy or a good guy.

Originally Posted by Rabs

I understood the PAK-FA was going to be a JSF competitor.

You are correct. While many people would like the new design to be the competitor of the F-22, the Russian AF has stated several times, the PAK-FA is a competitor of the F-35.

Originally Posted by Damien435

And the Russians stole the..... Mig-27? From a Canadian design that was called Aero or something like that.

Was the "Buran" a copy of the NASA space shuttle or, could it be the solution was the logical answer to similar problems?

Originally Posted by AJChenMPH

Man, looking at that diagram of the PAK FA worries me -- not so much because of the capabilities, but can you imagine being part of an F-22 flight and getting into the phone booth with a flight of PAK FA's? You better pray that the IFF is working, otherwise you might not be sure if you're shooting a bad guy or a good guy.

What makes you think the F-22 is somehow less capable than the new Russian design? People ASSUME that because so much emphasis was placed on BVR that the F-22A is somehow less capable in a knife-fight. The USAF has known for a long time what Russian technology is capable of manufacturing!

A Topic To The Side;
At the beginning of the F-22/F-23 program, the USAF's Air Intelligence, DARPA and, CIA did a study as to assess what the USSR's technical capabilities would be in the time period of 1990 to 2010. The study was based upon the Cold War continuing and it turned out to be very accurate. The specs of the ATF were designed so the F-22 would be superior to anything the USSR could build in this time period. The financial breakdown of the USSR, the need for cash and, them placing some of their best weapon systems on the open market allowed the USA's intelligence services know the accuracies and inaccuracies of that study. The fact that Russia has sold the USAF Su-27's (11/26/95) and MiG.-29's only helps our intelligence community. The Russians have not developed any completely new aircraft since the country went bankrupt. Only modifications of the MiG.-29 or Su-27. So, the USA knows what the Russian are capable of making and will be able to make for many years.
Many other countries know what the Russian Air Force has also. In 1988, the Japanese Diet (the Japanese Parliament or Congress) paid the USSR $300,000 for two JASDF pilots did undergo training to fly the Su-27! Also familiarization and evaluation program in the USSR! Japan wanted to know the capabilities of the Su-27 because it had been causing the Japan Air Defense problems.

AVON, I think the point is how the PAK-FA and the F-22 look very much alike, not the performance.

How about this :

...Of particular interest to the Air Force is the F-22's ability to deal with "double digit SAMs." A double digit SAM, Air Force parlance for Russian-designed mobile surface-to-air missiles, is so named for the two digit designator in their NATO reporting name. The Russian-designed S-300P Angara, for instance, is designated "SA-10" by NATO countries. The "S-300PMU Favorit" is designated the "SA-20." Both Russia and China manufacture these weapons systems, and they are readily available on the market. These weapons are highly mobile and pose a threat to Air Force legacy aircraft such as the F-15 and F-16.

"It's a huge problem in the future if you think about a double digit SAM. A double digit SAM is equivalent to our (phased array tracking intercept of target missiles)," General Lewis said. "As you know, PATRIOTs shot down some of our own friendlies. And the friendlies knew they were being targeted by the PATRIOT. They tried the best they could and they still got shot down. That is the future if there are double digit SAMs in that environment. You have got to go in there and kill them. If you can't kill them, you will be denied air space. That is what we envision."

from : http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123022371

IMO, No Equals = Air Superiority, but with those 2-digits SAMs, it's still questionable

"In a fight against other airplanes, the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor's stealth capabilities are useless, claims noted fighter designer Pierre Sprey, since the Raptor must radiate to detect the enemy, thus announcing its location to everyone in the vicinity with a Radar Warning Receiver.

Under these circumstances, a Raptor is no better than any late-model fighter such as the Sukhoi Su-27 series, which is considerably cheaper."

All four parts of this article have alot of good info on the back and forth points concerning the F22's performance.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002675.html

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

AVON, I think the point is how the PAK-FA and the F-22 look very much alike, not the performance.

Some women might think I look somewhat like Denzel Washington but, the difference in our paychecks reflect reality!

Originally Posted by keytud

"In a fight against other airplanes, the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor's stealth capabilities are useless, claims noted fighter designer Pierre Sprey

Its truly sad when time has passed a man by and he no longer realizes he is out of touch with current technology! To make comments like a T-38 with HMDS / HOBS missile is the equal of an F-22A has turned out to be so wrong.
In one test three F-16Cs with simulated HMDS & HOBS missiles against one F-22A in WVR. The F-22A (as usual) bounced the F-16s shooting down two and was in the process of shooting down the third one when they fired simultaneously, killing each other. Had the F-22A had a HMDS, it would have killed the third F-16C without exposing itself to the F-16's counter-fire.

Originally Posted by keytud

the Raptor must radiate to detect the enemy, thus announcing its location to everyone in the vicinity with a Radar Warning Receiver.

While the F-22 practices as though it APG-77 can be detected, in reality, there is no RWR currently can detect the APG-77's LPI signal. Not even the Typhoon's RWR!
When the APG-77's radar can be detected, one F-22 can detect the opponent and send information by data-link to another F-22 in another direction that is not broadcasting. So the first thing an opponent would know is when the AMRAAM turns on its terminal guidance radar at its target. Just a few miles left to the target while closing at speeds over Mach two!