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| Banned ![]() | Post; The Perils of WithdrawalQuote:
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| Tribunus Laticlavius | But finally we do have one point made clear: it has been about the oil all along!
__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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| Banned ![]() | Quote:
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| | Post 4 |
| Milforum Moderator ![]() | No Ted, it's about self-preservation. If you're foolish enough to believe that if American troops are withdrawn that the area will settle down and all will be hunky dory then you're self-delusional. As soon as the American troops are withdrawn, Iraq will be descended upon by neighboring Islamic thugs. The country have been surrendered to terrorists. These are not freedom fighters as they would have you believe. Most are not Iraqi. They are Islamic fundamentalists that are sworn to destroy everyone who is not. It will not be good enough to have a non-fundamentalist girlfriend either. No, I'm afraid this is not about oil. It's not that simple. The point that is quite clear is that this is about survival, mine and yours. Don't kid yourself.
__________________ "I was a soldier, I am a soldier, I always will be a soldier." To Avoid Infractions - Click Here And Read the Forum Rules Before You Post. |
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| Tribunus Laticlavius | DTOP Not so sure about that, I seriously doubt Osama or a Osama type would find Iraq to be a suitable place. First Iraq is divided into 3 ethnic groups Kurds, Shiite, and Sunni. Thay all hate each other. The Islamaic radicals like Osama tend to be Sunni and they are the minority in Iraq. Secondly unlike Afganistan the people in Iraq have a high degree of education whereas in Afganistan they had no education. This means that controlling the public would far more difficult. Another factor was that Iraq under Saddam was actually a freer place than say Saudi Arabia. I seriously doubt the public would be willing to accept a Islamic Autocrat that would teleport them back to the 12th Century. Would most likely happen if the US pulled out would be a Civil War between the Sunni and Shiite and while that wouldnt be good for Iraq or the ME in general it would be better for those who life outside the ME. Iran might try a tip the scale toward the Shiites, but then again you can be sure Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and others would back the Sunni. I dont think we should withraw immediatly but I do think we need a exit plan. We need to leave, out presence in the area is only escalating things. Unfortunatly the only plan the Bush Administration can seem to mumble is the same one that got us into this mess in the first place. As John McCain said "stay the course is not a plan". About the Oil. I find it very hard to believe considering that Iraq has the 2nd largest oilfields in the world and since oil companies have been boasting record profits since the war began that oil wasnt at least in the equation. Patroitism and talking tough on terrorism is well and good but money talks in America. Oil may not be the reason of why we cannot leave, it was in the cards when this all started. |
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| Milforum Moderator ![]() | Ah mmarsh, the voice from the honorable opposition. What took you so long mon ami? Anyway, we all have heard the same criticism of anything the president says. However, we hear no alternate plans from the dissenting chorus. To announce that US troops are to be pulled out on a specific date before Iraq is ready is merely to surrender Iraq to the terrorists. All that would do is to give them carte blanche to increase their attacks on our troops just to claim that they defeated America and booted the Infidels out of Iraq. That would do a huge disservice to anyone who has fought for the freedom of the Iraqi people and to the Iraqis as well. It would most definitely be seen as a cowardly retreat. That is why "stay the course" is not such a bad plan after all. I don't pretend to speak for the President but, I am sure he agrees that our troops cannot stay there forever. He wants to make sure that Iraq can defend itself against what will almost certainly an tidal wave of attacks from those who already show a wonton disregard for the Iraqi people on a daily basis. I for one will never favor a course of action that dishonors our fighting men and women. I wonder if you can understand that? |
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| Nuclear Duck Hunter ![]() | Iraq seems to be pretty low on the oil producing totem pole. If it's not for oil, what are those wascally Americans up to? Could it be that they really are concerned about the war on terror? http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html Top World Oil Producers, 2004* Total Oil Production (million barrels per day) 1) Saudi Arabia 10.37 2) Russia 9.27 3) United States 8.69 4) Iran 4.09 5) Mexico 3.83 6) China 3.62 7) Norway 3.18 9) Venezuela 2.86 10) United Arab Emirates 2.76 11) Kuwait 2.51 12) Nigeria 2.51 13) United Kingdom 2.08 13) Iraq 2.03 Top World Oil Net Exporters, 2004* In millions of barrels per day. 1) Saudi Arabia 8.73 2) Russia 6.67 3) Norway 2.91 4) Iran 2.55 5) Venezuela 2.36 6) United Arab Emirates 2.33 7) Kuwait 2.20 9) Mexico 1.80 10) Algeria 1.68 11) Iraq 1.48 12) Libya 1.34 13) Kazakhstan 1.06 14) Qatar 1.02 |
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| Tribunus Laticlavius | DTOP What an Introduction! I'm flattered! Naturally I dont mean we sit on our buttocks and do nothing as we wait for the countdown to reach 0. The Interim time should be used on one thing and one thing only. Training the Iraqi security Forces and NOTHING ELSE. Right now we have a hodge podge of different tactics such as creating democracy, focusing on the economy, focusing of infrastructure, focusing on security, etc. The problem is none of it works. My suggestion, forget democracy for the timebeing and just put somebody firm in charge (ie not Chalabi). Saddam stayed in power 30 years by strongarming the public, perhaps we need to do the same. As of right now there is only 1 Combat ready Battalion (the rest only exist on paper) in 3 years. Napoleon built his Grand Armee in less time. Thats got to change. As for the dems, if you think about it they are making a very smart political move by saying nothing. Look how much trouble the GOP has gotten themselves into this year all by themselves. And to the GOP frustration they have no issue to attack the Dems on because the Dems are quiet. But my guess you might see a Democratic plan near election 2006. I dont see withdrawing as a dishonor on the soldiers, on the politicians yes but Im not losing any sleep over it. The soldiers didnt start this war, the politicans did (like all wars), and like all wars it was the soldiers that got stuck cleaning up the mess. Missileer You are mixing up oil production and oil capacity. The reason Iraq is at the bottom was that Saddams neglect, UN embargo, the Iraq invasion, and now Terrorist attacks have crippled the oil infrastructure for the last decade. Were the pumps and refineries to be repaired Iraq would be a oil goldmind. Remember Rummy saying Iraqi would pay for the invasion through its oil and the US taxpayer wouldnt spend a dime, that was proof that certain people had black gold on their mind. |
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| Milforum Moderator ![]() | Just so that everyone is on the same page, here is a link to the National Security Council's "National Strategy For Victory In Iraq" It says, in part ; "Victory in Iraq is Defined in Stages • Short term, Iraq is making steady progress in fighting terrorists, meeting political milestones, building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces. • Medium term, Iraq is in the lead defeating terrorists and providing its own security, with a fully constitutional government in place, and on its way to achieving its economic potential. • Longer term, Iraq is peaceful, united, stable, and secure, well integrated into the international community, and a full partner in the global war on terrorism. Victory in Iraq is a Vital U.S. Interest • Iraq is the central front in the global war on terror. Failure in Iraq will embolden terrorists and expand their reach; success in Iraq will deal them a decisive and crippling blow. • The fate of the greater Middle East – which will have a profound and lasting impact on American security – hangs in the balance. Failure is Not an Option • Iraq would become a safe haven from which terrorists could plan attacks against America, American interests abroad, and our allies. • Middle East reformers would never again fully trust American assurances of support for democracy and human rights in the region – a historic opportunity lost. • The resultant tribal and sectarian chaos would have major consequences for American security and interests in the region. The Enemy Is Diffuse and Sophisticated • The enemy is a combination of rejectionists, Saddamists, and terrorists affiliated with or inspired by Al Qaida. Distinct but integrated strategies are required to defeat each element. • Each element shares a common short-term objective – to intimidate, terrorize, and tear down – but has separate and incompatible long-term goals. • Exploiting these differences within the enemy is a key element of our strategy. Our Strategy for Victory is Clear • We will help the Iraqi people build a new Iraq with a constitutional, representative government that respects civil rights and has security forces sufficient to maintain domestic order and keep Iraq from becoming a safe haven for terrorists. To achieve this end, we are pursuing an integrated strategy along three broad tracks, which together incorporate the efforts of the Iraqi government, the Coalition, cooperative countries in the region, the international community, and the United Nations." |
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| Nuclear Duck Hunter ![]() | Quote:
Field, Country Size estimate 1. Ghawar, Saudi Arabia 75-83 billion barrels 2. Burgan, Kuwait 66-72 billion barrels 2a. Cantarell, Mexico (often listed as a large complex of multiple smaller fields) 35 billion barrels 3. Bolivar Coastal, Venezuela 30-32 billion barrels 4. Safaniya-Khafji, Saudi Arabia/Neutral Zone 30 billion barrels 5. Rumaila, Iraq 20 billion barrels 6. Tengiz, Kazakstan 15-26 billion barrels 7. Ahwaz, Iran 17 billion barrels 8. Kirkuk, Iraq 16 billion barrels 9. Marun, Iran 16 billion barrels 10. Gachsaran, Iran 15 billion barrels 11. Aghajari, Iran 14 billion barrels 12. Samotlor, West Siberia, Russia 14-16 billion barrels 13.Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, USA 13 billion barrels 13a. Kashagan, Kazakhstan 13 billion barrels 14. Abqaiq, Saudi Arabia 12 billion barrels 15. Romashkino, Volga-Ural, Russia 12-14 billion barrels 16. Chicontepec, Mexico 12 billion barrels 17. Berri, Saudi Arabia 12 billion barrels 18. Zakum, Abu Dhabi, UAE 12 billion barrels 19. Manifa, Saudi Arabia 11 billion barrels 20. Faroozan-Marjan, Saudi Arabia/Iran 10 billion barrels 21. Marlim, Campos, Brazil 10-14 billion barrels | |
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