Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Let me put it this way.
Taiwan, Japan and South Korea have far less of any of those three factors than Indonesia does. Guess who's more powerful and wealthy?

Power and wealthiness is consequences of Westernization of this region. Wasn't Taiwan a British colony for a while, and S-Korea and Japan received both material help and Western influence from USA after WW2 and Korean war.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Plus your case for number 2 is pretty weak. As in they will fight more fanatically for a cause or as in somehow it will help them turn out better cars?

No. Religion or any other ideology CAN unite a population, motivate it for a development. The main benefit of islam is birth rate for now, which is quote important for civilization (in opposition to Western world, where birth rate is a problem).

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

As for their resources, other than Indonesia and Malaysia, most of these resources you're talking about is oil. Well, there's so much demand to move away from that stuff that eventually we will. Then what they have after that is a whole lot of sand.

Population is important but it doesn't guarantee anything. Again, I cite Indonesia. Largest Muslim population in the world. And then again, the guys with all the money there are Chinese.

Of course, there is no guarantee for anything. However I think the Chinese has better chances to become a world power, since they have much higher technological potential than islam states. I have not seen lot of things, made in islam states, but there are plenty of Chinese-made things.

* * *
Edited: I foresee that after fall of Western civilization the Chinese and Islamic civilization will compete for domination over the world.

Actually Japan initially did not receive western aid when it first developed under the Meiji Restoration. That was all their own work. So again, your theory doesn't hold. What America did give South Korea was mostly destroyed during the Korean War so again, direct Western help is being over played. I'm not that familiar with Taiwan so I can't really say much about that. Most American help towards South Korea was in fact military more than anything else (Free fighter jets!!).
As in uniting a people... you overestimate how strongly united the Islamic communities are. They are very much fractured, more so than you could possibly believe. When they do unite, it's because there is some kind of incident that causes a common outrage. I've seen it happen in many different countries. I have seen it in the United States, in South Korea and in Indonesia. Despite the peoples' differences, there are certain things they have or hold in common and when these are disturbed, especially by an outsider/foreigner or foreign power there is a common outrage that gives the IMPRESSION that they are all answering to the same person.
During these times, charismatic and often inflammatory leaders will take to the stage, get captured by the press and give the impression that they wield more power than they actually do. No doubt they possess significant power but largely it is political theater designed to bring in more supporters in their local front.
There isn't even a real "Islamic Civilization."
Extremists are out there of course but believe me, the common folk in Islamic countries DO NOT welcome them. But they are afraid to speak out because if they do, their lives and the lives of their families will be terminated pretty damn quickly.

You don't have to take me seriously if you don't want but consider the fact that I have grown up in Muslim countries for just about my entire teenage years and have had Muslim friends from Egypt, Syria, Malaysia etc. and Palestinians too. Yeah and I listened to what they had to say.
I think you should stick to topics you know best.

Edit: I didn't say it but I looked it up and it confirmed what I first knew, Taiwan was never a British Colony. Stick to topics you know about.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Actually Japan initially did not receive western aid when it first developed under the Meiji Restoration.

Didn't receive western aid initially or at all?

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

What America did give South Korea was mostly destroyed during the Korean War so again, direct Western help is being over played. I'm not that familiar with Taiwan so I can't really say much about that. Most American help towards South Korea was in fact military more than anything else (Free fighter jets!!).

And there was no aid to S-Korea after Korean war? No investments, too?

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

As in uniting a people... you overestimate how strongly united the Islamic communities are. They are very much fractured, more so than you could possibly believe. When they do unite, it's because there is some kind of incident that causes a common outrage. I've seen it happen in many different countries. I have seen it in the United States, in South Korea and in Indonesia. Despite the peoples' differences, there are certain things they have or hold in common and when these are disturbed, especially by an outsider/foreigner or foreign power there is a common outrage that gives the IMPRESSION that they are all answering to the same person.
During these times, charismatic and often inflammatory leaders will take to the stage, get captured by the press and give the impression that they wield more power than they actually do. No doubt they possess significant power but largely it is political theater designed to bring in more supporters in their local front.
There isn't even a real "Islamic Civilization."

I didn't say muslim people are highly united today. I'm afraid they are not. If they were, the US lead invasions in Afghanistan and Iraq wouldn't be tolerated. However, my point was islam could become such uniting element under conditions. It has potential, not more. And there is nothing related to extremists.

If there is no `Islamic civilization`, there is no such `Christian civilization` too...

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Edit: I didn't say it but I looked it up and it confirmed what I first knew, Taiwan was never a British Colony. Stick to topics you know about.

That's a detail in sense of topic. Taiwan as anti-communist forepost near the Chicoms also should receive some help from US in Cold War era. Just other way of Western influence.

I.e. - South Korea, Japan, Taiwan and Hong-Kong - their success is consequence of their westernization.

Japan's Meiji restoration was their own work. No they did not receive foreign aid. So shut up already. Not like I'm a big fan of Japan myself.
As for South Korea receiving foreign investments. I think most countries have had some sort of foreign investment. Some countries like South Korea have made the most of them and have managed to be successful while others have failed to make any use of them (mostly either due to corruption or internal conflict). So it's not like it was given some sort of unfair boost. There are more international investments in Indonesia than there are in South Korea. Again, which country is better off? As for aid, not significantly. If you think the IMF package is an aid, well, the US also received their help back in the 70s I believe.
As for your argument about the potential of unity of Muslims... your argument is weak. Yes I argue there is no "Islamic Civilization," and I also agree that there is no "Christian Civilization." The average church forms a faction and splits into two after it has reached a membership between 200 - 300. A Christian in South Africa will not take orders blindly from a priest in Taiwan just because they are Christian. It's a common faith (with variations) but it's not like a massive civilization where Christianity is the predominant factor. You'd say that Islam has more control over its people than Christianity does. This is true. But this is also largely because most Islamic countries are quite poor. As their standard of living goes up, the religious control that governs them dissipates just the same.
Westernization = modernization. At least in the 20th century.
Do you not think Islamic countries are not westernized to a degree? They all are. Have you even set foot in a Muslim country before? Have you even set foot in any of these countries you're talking about?

P.s. Iraq, Iran, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Egypt are all countries who have received aid from the West. Many of these countries have received more aid and more investments than any of those East Asian countries you have mentioned.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Westernization = modernization. At least in the 20th century.

Westernization also includes increase of personal freedom and values of liberalism. In this aspect most Muslim countries are far from westernization, in terms of prohibition of alcohol, certain dress codes (especially for women).

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Do you not think Islamic countries are not westernized to a degree?

Some are, most successful example could be Turkey.

Have you even set foot in a Muslim country before? Have you even set foot in any of these countries you're talking about?

I guess Malaysia is Muslim country? Than yes, I have been in Muslim country.

* * *
However, the fall of Western world as superpower is quite obvious and if there won't be a miracle, Western world eventually will loose its dominant role. Generally due to demographics, because birth rate of Western world natives is too low and integration of immigrants is slower than their birth rate and inflow.

The same problem threats Russia as potential superpower, since it also has too low birth rate. So far right?

So the potential superpower can arise only from remaining parts of the worlds. Generally - Chinese and Muslims. Chinese have better chances, since they already are united in one country. When Muslims need to unite in federation/coalition first, which, as You state, is quite unlikely (i.e. they do not have sufficient predictions to form federation or coalition united enough). So far right or not again? If no, WHERE is flaw?

None of what you have answered so far gives me good reason to believe that these "Islamic states" will become the next major power.
I don't disagree the relative power of the West will go down at least for a while.
Muslims again you clump into one group but again it's a false catagorization.
Also, although Islam condemns alcohol, people make moonshine in their own homes and have some pretty intense binge sessions. In Indonesia, they have their own brand of beer and Muslims actually drink it.
Don't believe me? I know a guy who used to work a project in Iran. He was there for a good 5 years I think. Said almost every house he had has moonshine. The houses often have high fences if they have a garden and basically inside the walls they're just like anyone else. The women dress whatever, they drink their moonshine, gamble even.
My point is, the whole Islamic sphere isn't like you think it is. It's just that the crazy nuts make all the headlines.
Actually Superpowers don't have to come from the remaining parts of the world. Old powers can make a comeback. For example, the US could be in a twenty or thirty year decline which it could recover again. It's possible that other potential powers may not be able to exploit this relative decline as well. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
A large population is usually a prerequisite for a country being a superpower but it is far from a guarantee. You have to be able to use it properly.
Are you arguing against yourself in the end? Because I think you're now saying the Muslims probably won't unite into one cohesive force. In which case the "Islamic States" being a super power in the future doesn't hold a lot of weight.
Either way, so how long were you in Malaysia? Do you speak Malay?
Anyways I think I've argued this subject to death and I hope you can stay to the point. All you've done here is confirm what I said. Yet somehow you're saying you're right.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Are you arguing against yourself in the end? Because I think you're now saying the Muslims probably won't unite into one cohesive force. In which case the "Islamic States" being a super power in the future doesn't hold a lot of weight.

Let's say it depends from both political ambitions and will of leaders of richest and most influential Muslim states. At the moment I do not see anyone with ambitions and will enough, Osama bin Laden does not qualify But there is no guarantee that such ambitions won't arise in future. United States in the very beginning of 20th century also hadn't any political ambitions to be a superpower of the world.

the war between islam and chirist will be continued

Originally Posted by yingying

the war between islam and chirist will be continued

Jesus Christ is a central figure in Islam as well. Get your facts straight.

Originally Posted by yingying

the war between islam and chirist will be continued

Maybe, but not in form it was ~1000 years ago. More likely it could be rebirth of racist ideas and movements - part of native Europeans which dislike immigrants from South and East, exists. The question is how large this part is and will it increase or not.