Originally Posted by Gator

Do you have Federal Government Law which contradicts my Post?

I can offer http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution/Amend.html


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

As for the Treaty of Tripoli, well you can try all day long to rewrite Official US History to fit your Religious Beliefs, but that will not change Official United States Government History on the matter.

I'm not disputing the fact that the Constitution was written such that no religion could be proclaimed a National religion and all could peacefully worship in their own way. What I do dispute is your proclamation that religion didn't play a big part in the lives of the founders. A belief in God or a Supreme Being was discussed at great length during the Congressional Convention so one has to believe that religion influenced the thoughts that went into the basic morality of the Constitution itself.

I can find no personal letters or speeches by those present at the Convention disavowing the existence of God or a Supreme Being or Creator of the universe. To understand the thoughts behind the Constitution is to understand the Constitution itself. Otherwise it's just ink and parchment.

AWESOME post!

This is one to share, thanks!

Originally Posted by Missileer

I'm not disputing the fact that the Constitution was written such that no religion could be proclaimed a National religion and all could peacefully worship in their own way. What I do dispute is your proclamation that religion didn't play a big part in the lives of the founders. A belief in God or a Supreme Being was discussed at great length during the Congressional Convention so one has to believe that religion influenced the thoughts that went into the basic morality of the Constitution itself.

I can find no personal letters or speeches by those present at the Convention disavowing the existence of God or a Supreme Being or Creator of the universe. To understand the thoughts behind the Constitution is to understand the Constitution itself. Otherwise it's just ink and parchment.

And yet the word "god" was so pretentiously left out of the United States Constitution.
One would think that such a pious group of individuals would have put forth the effort to thank their god in the United States Constitution when in the process of writing it, or saying that the United States Constitution was founded on, or at least in part on Religious Law or Religious Values, if in fact that be the case.

Originally Posted by Gator

And yet the word "god" was so pretentiously left out of the United States Constitution.
One would think that such a pious group of individuals would have put forth the effort to thank their god in the United States Constitution when in the process of writing it, or saying that the United States Constitution was founded on, or at least in part on Religious Law or Religious Values, if in fact that be the case.

The idea of relief from religious persecution was what brought the pilgrims to America in the first place. The Founders had an inborn aversion to a theocracy by the time they formulated a secular Constitution. A little abstract thinking is necessary when interpreting any document not written by one personally. The high moral values of each article and ammendment is evident and obviously written for a populace, not a congregation.

As for your claim of the level of piousness of each framer, we'll just have to let history be the judge of that.

Originally Posted by Missileer

The idea of relief from religious persecution was what brought the pilgrims to America in the first place. The Founders had an inborn aversion to a theocracy by the time they formulated a secular Constitution. A little abstract thinking is necessary when interpreting any document not written by one personally. The high moral values of each article and ammendment is evident and obviously written for a populace, not a congregation.

As for your claim of the level of piousness of each framer, we'll just have to let history be the judge of that.

Saying that the United States of America was founded on the "Christian Religion" amounts to a Theocracy.



Treaty of Tripoli - Article 11

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

And I ask myself, what Religion would a bunch of 18 Century intellectuals forming a Government in America use as guide other than the "Christain Religion"?.... if I had to pick one that is. But, the "in any sense" phrase means that I do not have to pick any, as there were none used.

That, along with the US Constitution itself seems to put Official United States Government History on my side.

As for the United States Constitution, I add nothing to the United States Constitution and I take nothing away from the United States Constitution..... not my opinion, not your opinion, not any opinion.... except that of the United States Supreme Court.

I believe it best to have a Government where Religion is completely separate from Government and Government is completely separate from Religion.

Gator, you're repeating over and over words that I have not written. I think every shot of common sense just whistles through your rigging. I give up.

Originally Posted by Missileer

Gator, you're repeating over and over words that I have not written. I think every shot of common sense just whistles through your rigging. I give up.

LOL What else is new.

Missileer

The Founding Fathers came from many different backgrounds, many different countries of origin and many different faiths.

I don't deny that some, perhaps most, were men of religous faith, but some were not. Nor do I think the term "supreme being" is an acknowledgment of any faith. Some might have acknowledged a higher power but not necessarily as a deity.

But regardless of what their personal views were, the fact that they went out of their way to keep these personal views out of the crafting of the consitutution is unmistakeable.

All references to "God" in US Government such as "under God" or "In God we trust" were added much later, which is unfortunate as it created a string of problems.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Missileer

The Founding Fathers came from many different backgrounds, many different countries of origin and many different faiths.

I don't deny that some, perhaps most, were men of religous faith, but some were not. Nor do I think the term "supreme being" is an acknowledgment of any faith. Some might have acknowledged a higher power but not necessarily as a deity.

But regardless of what their personal views were, the fact that they went out of their way to keep these personal views out of the crafting of the consitutution is unmistakeable.

All references to "God" in US Government such as "under God" or "In God we trust" were added much later, which is unfortunate as it created a string of problems.

Proof that Religious Fanatics don't just come from the Middle East, and they don't just pray to allah.
I thank my God that the Founding Fathers who came up with the US Constitution were not Religious Fanatics of their day.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Missileer

The Founding Fathers came from many different backgrounds, many different countries of origin and many different faiths.

I don't deny that some, perhaps most, were men of religous faith, but some were not. Nor do I think the term "supreme being" is an acknowledgment of any faith. Some might have acknowledged a higher power but not necessarily as a deity.

But regardless of what their personal views were, the fact that they went out of their way to keep these personal views out of the crafting of the consitutution is unmistakeable.

All references to "God" in US Government such as "under God" or "In God we trust" were added much later, which is unfortunate as it created a string of problems.

Recognize this?

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.