Originally Posted by MontyB

Where has it been done before?
What country in existence today has:
1) Agreed to no effective defence of its borders.
2) Given away control of its own air space.
3) Allowed another country to expand "naturally" into its territory?

Germany and Japan.
Turns out they got their military back, though in a limited sense. If the Palestinians prove to be cooperative about a real working co-existence, odds are they too will get a shot.
And for the most part, because they didn't have to spend so much money on defense, they ended up being better off for it. You could have various Arab countries take turns providing Naval and Air assets until the Palestinians are cleraed to have their own. Countries namely Egypt and Jordan who aren't so crazy about Israel's destruction.
The part that the Israelis seriously need to work on is number 3. If they could only honor that part, the Palestinians would be pretty low on justifications.

Originally Posted by Partisan

Reality says that Hammas will not go away, but if there is recognition and equal rights for the Palestinians - then Hammas will have less of a recruitment base.

Maybe a bit, not not likely since their aim is to get rid of Israel completely and there are plenty of folks who sing to the same tune.
A better way would be to have big businesses go into Palestine and provide for well paying, stable jobs but with the instability of the area, it's not likely. Odds are, Hammas and the like will attack these businesses to scare them away for stealing their potential recruits.

And both surrendered unconditionally, are you suggesting that the Palestinians should surrender to Israel?

They are nothing alike as both Japan and Germany were already sovereign states and only lost control of their air space and armed forces to an occupying power.

I am going to agree with Partisan's last post on this issue.

Originally Posted by SHERMAN

Your issue is that you think if Palestinians had an independent state than Hammas wouldent do somthing like that. You basically understand as much about the muslim world as I do about maine biology(Not a lot).

What makes me laugh is that you continure to ignore the fact that even before 1967 the PLO conducted terro attacks on Israel, while what you call Palestine was infact occupied by Jordan and Egypt. Unless the Palestinians realize Israel is an actuall country and they cant just up and make it go away peace is unachieveable.

Thats not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that if you start negociating with Fatah and strike a deal with Fatah, Hamas loses all its support. As Partisan said there is always going to be a Hamas just like there will always be an al-Qaeda, but if you remove the basis of their power (which is the occupation issue) then ordinary Palestineans are just going to get on with their lives because the truth is most ordinary Palestineans actually want peace as well.

And with all due respect, you're the one whose out-of-touch here. You only see the Isreali side of the arguement but you are totally blind and/or indifferent to the suffering your occupation is causing. Gaza is now the most impoverished place on the planet -out doing Africa which is quite a feat. At least I see both sides of the coin, which is something you are stubbornly refusing to do.

You seem to think a military solution is going to win you peace, but peace is rarely achieved through military conquest alone. In Isreal's case it hasn't worked in 40 years and now you've got an additional problem: the world is fed up of this Middle-East bulls***. As I said, the world doesnt see Isreal as the victim here, much as you'd like us to. You are as responsible for this mess as the Palestineans are. If you dont start changing your ways you are going to start finding yourself without friends and a very angry 300 Million Muslims at your doorstep. You are sowing the seeds of your own destruction and you refuse to see it. You only want to talk about the violence, but not the root causes of the violence. Which is your totally illegal occupation of the West Bank. Solve that and there will be no violence.

13th Redneck

Germany and Japan werent given that much choice on the matter being that they were under Allied Occupation. MontyB is right on this any deal that denies the Palestineans the right to patrol their own borders, their airspace and sealanes is not a soveriegn state but a plebicite nation. Thats not a two state solution.

If you think Isreal is going to defend Palestine I have a bridge to sell you . In fact, that Palestine were to have no military would be an open invitation for someone else to exercise control (as was the situation in Lebanon), leaving the Palestineans once again homeless. Not that I'd think the Palestineans would want Isreali 'help'.

This "natural growth" is also baloney -its just a fancy way to keep creating new settlements on Palestinean Land. If Palestinean settlements started to grow a square block into Isreal how fast you'd think the Isrealis would respond militarily?

I didn't suggest Israel defend Palestine, I suggested the Palestinians have their infantry and light armor and that Egypt and Jordan help defend Palestine with the more substantial stuff (heavy artillery and air force) until Palestine no longer teaches "destroy Israel" to its people.
And like I said, I agree that Israel's natural growth thing needs to be stopped unconditionally.

Doesn't really matter whether or not Germany or Japan had a choice. They disarmed for a while and it worked out well for them. Once they got their fascism stuff sorted, they were allowed to have their own military (though with some limitations regarding their usage). Neither country was invaded or overrun during these times. I don't see Israel taking advantage of temporary disarmament of Palestine by steamrollering through and reoccupying everything.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

I didn't suggest Israel defend Palestine, I suggested the Palestinians have their infantry and light armor and that Egypt and Jordan help defend Palestine with the more substantial stuff (heavy artillery and air force) until Palestine no longer teaches "destroy Israel" to its people.
And like I said, I agree that Israel's natural growth thing needs to be stopped unconditionally.

Ok I partly agree. I think the biggest problem for the Palestineans is the Gaza Strip. I think the solution to that is to let Egypt absorb it, unless they wish to become Isreali which is highly doubtful. I just dont see Palestine as a split country, its just not feasible.

The "destoy Isreal" faction comes from the extremist groups. There are "destroy Palastine" groups as well. Rabbi Meir Kahane/JDL was one as well as its various splinter groups like JTF. Extremists on both sides should have ZERO say.

Most of the actual people in Palestine (like in Isreal) have no problem with Isreal. I have talked to many Palestineans (plenty living in Paris) almost without exception they can abide a Jewish Isreal next door to them as a neighboor. Its the occupation they have a problem with.

The biggest problem is the occupation. I am sorry to say that I think Likud has absolutely no intention to giving up its settlements. They seem to think that they are entitled to the land for whatever political or religious reason. As long as they have this attitude there will be no peace. Yassar Arafat was the biggest gift Likud could have hoped for because he like them had absolutely no desire to negociate which meant Likud could keep everything. But now Arafat is dead, and Abbas and the more moderate arab elements, the US, the Isreali Peace Movement, and the rest of the world want for a deal to be reached. Which is why BiBi is under so much pressure right now.