Originally Posted by MilidarUSMC

i know me saying anything has little credibility for being a junior Marine. but i think it all depends on my shop, b/c if someone is giving me an ass chewing and tells me to go to attention, then that NCO needs to be locked on. we had some NCO tell a junior Marine to snap to attention and that NCO got "locked on" by the SNCOIC so it all depends on the shop in my experience. but me, if some CPL or SGT started chewing me out for something and they werent from my squadron at all, i wouldnt give him the POA. he would just have to tell my SNCO that i wouldnt, thats just me though

Can't say I agree with this outlook. Why does an NCO need to be locked on for requiring a Pvt, PFC, or Lcpl assume the position of attention? Not saying that it needs to be done all the time, but if I'm counseling a Marine or taking corrective action and that Marine rolls his eyes, sucks his teeth or displays any type of silent insolance he's going to be put at the POA.

As far as an NCO who is not in your Unit. Well if Memory serves your oath reads To faithfully discharge the orders of all Commissioned and Noncommisioned officers appointed over me. Says not one thing about them being in your unit, in it's meaning it means the US Armed Forces. So that means every Marine Cpl, every Navy Petty Officer, every Army NCO and every Air Force NCO can in theory can issue you an order and expect to be followed. Because in theory they have been appointed over you by virtue of their promotion warrant.

It's kind of like saying you don't have to salute or render honors to a Navy Lt. because he's not in your chain of command. That's not gonna fly, and you know it.

As far as an NCO going to see your SNCOIC because you refused to come to the POA. Number 1 I would like to think that you would respect the rank and Number 2 I can think of very few reasons why on/off base an NCO not in your unit would brace you unless your totally 'ED up.

But I will tell you that as a SNCO I would listened to the NCO. And if one of mine was wrong, I'd disk em a miss. Regardless of the NCO's unit.

Good posts, 03.

i know me saying anything has little credibility for being a junior Marine. but i think it all depends on my shop, b/c if someone is giving me an ass chewing and tells me to go to attention, then that NCO needs to be locked on. we had some NCO tell a junior Marine to snap to attention and that NCO got "locked on" by the SNCOIC so it all depends on the shop in my experience. but me, if some CPL or SGT started chewing me out for something and they werent from my squadron at all, i wouldnt give him the POA. he would just have to tell my SNCO that i wouldnt, thats just me though

Micromanaging is the worst way to conduct business. Unless it were dire circumstance, I would never question or undermine one of my NCOs or Officers in front of junior Marines. Not only is it bad form, but it is poor leadership and sets a very poor example for the junior Marines.

As an officer, it is my responsibility to listen to my Marines to ensure they are getting the best leadership possible. Not only do I make it a point to get feedback from my Officers and NCOs, but all the way down to the Pvts. I'm not sure why your officers are letting things like this go on.

I expect my NCOs to handle their business in a timely, appropriate and efficient manner and not run off to tattle to the SNCOIC each time something happens. I also expect my junior Marines to listen to those above them. God help one that doesn't. I have no tolerance for insubordination, and by proxy, neither do my Marines.

Btw, I would personally have your ass if I got wind of such a thing. But, that's just me.

Originally Posted by RnderSafe

Good posts, 03.
Micromanaging is the worst way to conduct business.

I agree wholeheartedly. I am in a supply unit and attention needs to be paid to the smallest of details. If my Sgt or SNCO was always looking over my shoulder I would never get any work done.

Originally Posted by RnderSafe

Btw, I would personally have your ass if I got wind of such a thing. But, that's just me.

SEMPER FI !!

Originally Posted by 03USMC

Can't say I agree with this outlook. Why does an NCO need to be locked on for requiring a Pvt, PFC, or Lcpl assume the position of attention? Not saying that it needs to be done all the time, but if I'm counseling a Marine or taking corrective action and that Marine rolls his eyes, sucks his teeth or displays any type of silent insolance he's going to be put at the POA.

As far as an NCO who is not in your Unit. Well if Memory serves your oath reads To faithfully discharge the orders of all Commissioned and Noncommisioned officers appointed over me. Says not one thing about them being in your unit, in it's meaning it means the US Armed Forces. So that means every Marine Cpl, every Navy Petty Officer, every Army NCO and every Air Force NCO can in theory can issue you an order and expect to be followed. Because in theory they have been appointed over you by virtue of their promotion warrant.

It's kind of like saying you don't have to salute or render honors to a Navy Lt. because he's not in your chain of command. That's not gonna fly, and you know it.

As far as an NCO going to see your SNCOIC because you refused to come to the POA. Number 1 I would like to think that you would respect the rank and Number 2 I can think of very few reasons why on/off base an NCO not in your unit would brace you unless your totally 'ED up.

But I will tell you that as a SNCO I would listened to the NCO. And if one of mine was wrong, I'd disk em a miss. Regardless of the NCO's unit.

you are correct about my warrant reading that, like ofcourse you have more warrants than i have and know what they read better than i do . but at the same time there will not be a reason why i would need to be put at the POA, and the saluting thing is not a good example b/c no, i dont have to render a salute to any officer, its considered a custom/curtesy thus not a requirement, granted there is no reason why i wouldnt im just saying its not mandatory. but w/ the POA, it shouldnt even come to that, there are plenty of grates that need to be cleaned before that occurs. i for one just dont see a situation that would warrant a Marine to be put at the POA for discplinary actions.

Originally Posted by MilidarUSMC

you are correct about my warrant reading that, like ofcourse you have more warrants than i have and know what they read better than i do . but at the same time there will not be a reason why i would need to be put at the POA, and the saluting thing is not a good example b/c no, i dont have to render a salute to any officer, its considered a custom/curtesy thus not a requirement, granted there is no reason why i wouldnt im just saying its not mandatory. but w/ the POA, it shouldnt even come to that, there are plenty of grates that need to be cleaned before that occurs. i for one just dont see a situation that would warrant a Marine to be put at the POA for discplinary actions.

Not to argue the point more than needs be, But your comments in bold are almost word for word what one of my junior Marines said to me.

As for the red text, you may want to re-read your general orders and find the one where it states:

Salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.

Also you may want to go back and review someof the puinitive articles of the UCMJ where it talks about disrespect to a commissioned officer. Not rendering appropriate courtesies is considered disrespect.

Someone above mentioned a "sea lawyer". There are many gray areas and more often than not the people that give "advice" should mayhaps look at the orders. I am a Corporal and I have been reviewing many of the MCOs just for cases like the one in my shop. My Marines challenge me so I prove or disprove their "theory".

If there is no MCO that says I can not do it (whatever "it" may be) then apparently I can do it, within reason of course.


Back to my original question, I plan on talking to an officer or two today (I talk to a few every day) and find out from them their take on this. As of yet I have not found a MCO for or against it.

This thread makes me feel like I am back in the barracks... so many similar conversations about issues like this. Its best to go directly to the regs and NEVER take anyone else's word for anything that might get your arse in a sling.

Originally Posted by MilidarUSMC

you are correct about my warrant reading that, like ofcourse you have more warrants than i have and know what they read better than i do . but at the same time there will not be a reason why i would need to be put at the POA, and the saluting thing is not a good example b/c no, i dont have to render a salute to any officer, its considered a custom/curtesy thus not a requirement, granted there is no reason why i wouldnt im just saying its not mandatory. but w/ the POA, it shouldnt even come to that, there are plenty of grates that need to be cleaned before that occurs. i for one just dont see a situation that would warrant a Marine to be put at the POA for discplinary actions.

And I would answer this ^^^^^ as such. As a United States Marine you carry with that title a responsibilty to maintain your discipline and military bearing to include rendering proper respect to all ranks senior to you, regardless of that senior ranks, branch, unit or billet.

I am of the belief that each Marine is a direct reflection of his Command.Anything you do or do not do. Your appearence, bearing and your discipline reflect directly on your command. So even if you don't maintain these traits for yourself you should do it for your command or your command should ensure you maintain them by whatever remedial means they deem fit.

Any finally. Your such a Young Marine to be so quickly turning into a Sea Lawyer. Kinda sad.

"Can a ***** ***** NCO bring a non rate to attention if the situation warrants it for purposes of correction?"

What s*ithouse lawyer came up with this crappy question and argument.

Trooper you need to take your dusty copy of the UCMJ down from the closet in the outhouse and answer your own d*mn question. Every reference you need is contained in that manual.

As an E-4/E-5 NCO (any military branch, if a non rate E-1/E-2/E-3 (any military branch) screwed up I would have locked his heels to attention so fast his eyeballs wouldn't have had a chance to settle back into his head from snapping "eyes front".

If I had gotten an argument from Mr "dumbsh*t", I would have taken him to the Bosun's Locker and adjusted his attitude.

I can't believe that the Marines have forgotten one of the major reasons for the Marine's Thursday Night Smokers. Recalcitrant juniors regularly had attitude matches with a senior who finally said enough. It was either that or write junior up and screw up an otherwise talented young Marine.

TO ALL OF YOU REAL JARHEADS OUT THERE - AM I RIGHT OR AM I WRONG? OOH RAH!

I agree Chief however it appears times are changing. So just for the Sea Lawyers among us who believe an NCO has no juice.

UCMJ Article 91 Insubordination toward a Warrant Officer, NCO, or Petty Officer

Any Warrant Officer or Enlisted Member Who.

1. Strikes or assaults any warrant officer or NCO or Petty Officer while that officer is in execution of his office

2. Willfully disobeys a lawful order of warrant officer NCO or Petty Officer or

3. Treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, NCO or Petty Officer while that officer is in execution of his office shall be punished as a court martial may direct

And before the Sea Lawyers say that it has to a Duty NCO, CQ etc. Wrong. The element is that you knew the person to be a superior rank and that that NCO was acting in execution of his office.

That Office being the Office of a Non Commissioned Officer in the United States Armed Forces.

So Cpl. Jones can pretty much put your Rudy Poo baby Marine butt at the POA to conduct corrective action or he can run you article 91 when you come off with your sea lawyer BS.

Course I tend to agree with Chief. Wall to wall counseling is also a beautiful thing.

Indeed it is.