M-95/84AS compared to foreign tanks

I was just wondering how the Croatian M-95 Degman and the Serbian M-84AS compare to other, better known tanks in the world, such as the T-90, Leopard 2, Challenger 2, Merkava IV etc etc.

CROATIAN M-95 DEGMAN

M-95 Degman is a prototype Croatian main battle tank, developed in the factory Đuro Đaković specijalna vozila d.d., located in Slavonski Brod, Croatia. It is also known as the RH-ALAN Degman[1].The Đuro Đaković factory is best known for its principal role in the production of M-84, a Yugoslav version of the Soviet T-72 MBT produced under licence. M-95 Degman represents a further development on the M-84.
The principal improvement over the M-84 is the application of explosive reactive armor on the turret, hull front and side skirts, offering more protection against HEAT shaped-charge munitions as well as separate ammunition compartment at the back of the turret a bustle which protects the crew if tank gets hit from behind.
Đuro Đaković offers optional thermal imaging, which would allow enhanced night activity and optional 1,200 hp (890 kW) engine, which would raise the power to weight ratio to approximately 27 hp/t. There are also numerous smaller changes in fire control, communications equipment, track etc. The Degman has also a 15% faster auto loader meaning 9 shells per minute instead of 8 shells per minute.[2]
The Degman M-95 has not entered serial production yet, however two prototypes were ordered by the Croatian Government, a M-95 model and the other M-84D sample (for export). Đuro Đaković is going to be producing the export version the M-84D (for Kuwait and other potential buyers), essentially, an M-84A4 with significant upgrades. The Kuwaiti Army has confirmed interest in modernizing its 149 dated M-84 to the new M-84D standard, as well as the procurement of an additional 66 new M-84D's.[3] The far superior M-95 model will be ordered by the Croatian government.
The M-95 Degman tank was largely based on the older M-91 Vihor tank. A full working prototype of the Vihor tank completed basic testing at the Đuro Đaković but due the hostilities in mid-1991 this tank was never delivered to JNA. Đuro Đaković was already working on a second prototype (at this point the hull had been completed) but due to the hostilities work on the second Vihor prototype stalled until 1994 when it was completed with the new turret.
Meanwhile, the first prototype was upgraded and modernized, a more powerful 1200 hp engine was installed which provided a higher power to weight ratio. A storage basket and slat armor at the back of the turret were added, increasing armour protection. A Racal communication suite was installed to improve communications range and digital battlefield compatibility and a new CBRN suite was also added, the SZ 2000 CBRN suite giving substantially superior performance over the older NBC suite used on M-84 tank; for example, in nuclear or chemical/biological warfare situations, SZ-2000 shuts the engines down and automatically filters fresh air into the tank.
The Optics and fire control system was developed by Fotona, a Slovenian company, and now comes as standard on all current Croatian and Slovene M-84 tanks. The Vihor/M95 tank received new laser range finder, LIRD-4B - a laser irradiation warning system. A Fotona/Končar/Đuro Đaković digital battlefield computer has also been added to improve battlefield performance. Diehl provided new tracks giving the tank better performance both on and off road.
This project received considerable assistance from Elbit of Israel. Explosive Reactive Armor developed by Elbit is one major upgrade and gives a distinctive look to the M95 tank. Rafael - Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station which consist of a 12.7mm calibre heavy machine gun and 40mm grenade launcher is another upgrade. This Remote Controlled Weapon Station acts also as the commander's independent thermal viewer. Additional upgrades are planned, including a new 120mm compact gun developed by RUAG Defence of Switzerland and few additional defensive and ECM systems including LAHAT anti tank missiles.

Link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-95_Degman

SERBIAN M-84AS:

The M-84AS is a modernized version of the M-84 main battle tank produced by Yugoimport SDPR in Serbia. It was first presented in 2004 as the M-84AB1, but additional improvements led to the re-designation to M-84AS. This tank is equipped with an improved fire-control system with integrated day/night sight.[1] The M84A1 gun was replaced with a similar but improved gun which, along with better control characteristics, enables easy and fast field replacement of the barrel. The M-84AS tank is able to fire anti-tank guided missiles with laser guidance through the barrel, which enables accurate engagement of enemy tanks up to 6 km.
The M-84AS is equipped with non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) which offers protection against modern tandem cumulative warheads.[2] Besides better armour, the new tank is equipped with the modern Shtora electro-optical system for defense against wire and laser guided anti-tank missiles.[3] The new turret will provide protection against Kinetic Energy (RHAe) ATGs. Its new 9M119 Refleks is a laser beam riding guided anti-tank missile designed to penetrate 950 mm of RHA.
A commission is currently being drawn up to bring all 212 M-84 tanks currently in service to M-84AS standard. The project is expected to cost millions and span till the end of 2010.
Developed originally from the M-84, the M-84AS is more than just a quick tweak to bring it up to standard. Many improvements were adopted from what can be argued to be its' sister tank, the T-90. With slight differences in armour and maneuverability; the T-90 is better armoured while the M-84AS is faster and more maneuverable.
Apart from external differences to the M-84, it also has different internal structure and equipment, far surpassing the M-84AB in both capability and durability.

Link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-84AS

Anyways, as the M-84AS article says, the M-84AS appears to be the "sister tank" of the Russian T-90, and we can already say that the T-90 is an EXCELLENT tank because India is very impressed by it, and has ordered some 500 more for its army.

So, how does these two tanks compare with other, better known tanks like the Leopard 2 and Merkava IV? Would it have a good chance of taking them on and suceeding?
 
Looks like you've been donig all the work really.

Actually, if Kuwait is seriously interested in procuring those Degmans, it's probably a good indicator that it is a fine tank. Those guys have so much money to spend it's ridiculous. They don't have to settle for things that are 3rd rate.
I'm assuming they're not buying Degmans for some OPFOR unit.
 
Looks like you've been donig all the work really.

oh I have the information, when I found out the M-84AS had shtora I nearly wet myself. What I really want to know is for some person that has good experience, knowledge etc on tanks [Perhaps Sherman?] to give me their opinion on how a M-95/84AS compares to other, more popular tanks like a Leo or Challenger.
 
It's probably a safe bet that the Degman isn't as good as the top of the line MBTs like the Leo 2, or Challenger 2.
Croatia doesn't really have the technology of the UK, Germany, USA, Japan or South Korea and all parties involved created MBTs with some serious effort put into it. It'd be hard to imagine how Croatia could top them.
 
You seemed to have forgotten the M-84AS.

Well, the Croat and Serb ones do seem cost effective [Albeit the Serbian one uses a fair few Russian weapons, such as Shtora]. I think the original M-84 cost something around 800,000USD compared to the other, much more expensive tanks.
 
Just saying, it's highly unlikely a country that doesn't have top of the line tech or much precision manufacturing experience pump out top of the line tanks.
It's like Vietnam suddenly pumping out a modern LPH. It just doesn't happen.
 
Can somebody give me some good answers now?
Depends, they're still deep modernisations of 2nd gen tanks, if you want to put them against the best 3gen tanks they'd still need at least 2-1 ratio to have a chance, probably larger.

Make no mistake they're good tanks but these countries dont have the money or technology and the base vehicle is limited as to what can be done to it, they're good 2nd gen tanks though.
 
To me, both look very good tanks for that category and very close, but maybe M-84AS would be a little bit better because of the developed design is based on.

Btw, I like both.
 
To me, both look very good tanks for that category and very close, but maybe M-84AS would be a little bit better because of the developed design is based on.

Btw, I like both.

Yeah, they are both modernised M-84's lol


Well, doesnt Isael [Or was it Turkey?] have an extremely modernised M60 Patton in service [I remember sherman saying something about it ages ago]? Why would they bother with a modernised M60 Patton, which came out in the 60's, if it was no good against other more better tanks?
 
israel currently has the magach 7 (a hugely modernized m60a3) in reserves. the merkavas are their tanks that are active. but i suppose if there ever was another huge war on the 67/73 scale they might be put into action.
 
Yeah, they are both modernised M-84's lol


Well, doesnt Isael [Or was it Turkey?] have an extremely modernised M60 Patton in service [I remember sherman saying something about it ages ago]? Why would they bother with a modernised M60 Patton, which came out in the 60's, if it was no good against other more better tanks?


It depends on the level of modernization.
Israelis have the tech to modernize some weapons platforms that makes machines that would otherwise be seriously lacking in modern technology serious contenders. The Russian aircraft would be a good example. Without Israeli upgrades, they probably wouldn't get a lot of buyers. But with the upgrades, they are serious machines.
So just because it's an upgraded 2nd generation tank doesn't make them equal. It depends on who upgraded it and how. The upgraded M-60s would also have a hard time dealing with top of the line MBTs as well.

If you're not going to be happy with anything less than a full agreement about how awesome the M-95 (which is still in the prototype stage) and the M-84AS is then asking for people's opinion about it isn't really smart.
 
Im not saying that a M-84AS could take down a Leo2, im just wondering how it would compare to other MBT's. Like, the ratio.

Im pretty sure a Merkava would axe anything the Balkan countries can produce lol.
 
It depends on the level of modernization..
It depends on the money, Israel devotes a gigantic amount of its budget to the army.
Israelis have the tech to modernize some weapons platforms that makes machines that would otherwise be seriously lacking in modern technology serious contenders.
Serious contenders against what? Can you give examples of these awesome modernisations? As for technology Israel is not better than any other developed country worse than a few (its fighter being sub par for example).

The Russian aircraft would be a good example. Without Israeli upgrades, they probably wouldn't get a lot of buyers. But with the upgrades, they are serious machines.
What Russian aircraft????
So just because it's an upgraded 2nd generation tank doesn't make them equal. It depends on who upgraded it and how. The upgraded M-60s would also have a hard time dealing with top of the line MBTs as well.
Unless extremely lucky they'd get massacred not "have a hard time".
If you're not going to be happy with anything less than a full agreement about how awesome the M-95 (which is still in the prototype stage) and the M-84AS is then asking for people's opinion about it isn't really smart.
They're awesome, with a 120mm main gun and modern ammo they have the same level of firepower as 3gen MBTs, they're MUCH faster and manouvarable than any M-60 variant.

If you're discussing M-60 then Sabra (which is much more advanced than Israeli variants) is something to compare it too and its still inferior (15 kmph slower, armor steel and laminates which means its probably also weaker.

M-95 is fast, powerfull, reasonably armored, the main beef i'd have is that its not open to further modernisations, the only thing you could would be to mess around with the hull and thats where buying a new used 3gen MBT comes cheaper.

The problem is not in technology but in money, small countries like Croatia dont have the funds to R&D a 3gen MBT so these are "economy class" tanks.
 
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