M-95/84AS compared to foreign tanks - Page 7


Read more about Originally Posted by wayword son [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]i may note that the Sherman, and the panther both had 75mm guns, the 75 on the panther beat the Sher

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September 25th, 2009   #61
redwood
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_gunn
still it comes down to the gunn it have ,the 1 with the bigger stick always win the fight
Not really. The one advantage a T72 had in Iraq was a 123 mm gun compared to 120 mm on the M-1A1 and 105mm on some western tanks. The T72 was just too inferior in too many ways to have a chance in an open terrain battle. Yugoslavia is much different terrain and a "home field advantage" could help a lot. However, the ability to aim faster and shoot on the move is a big plus for the more advanced top tier tanks and if these are in effect upgraded T72 clones, the crew area will be cramped and ventilation not too good.
 
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November 5th, 2009   #62
danko
 
 
the simple fact of the matter is that this is unsustainable

to make a good tank you need to be in a country where your host can order 3000+ initially

what croatia is doing with this m95 is building a tank mostly from scratch (the one thats upgraded is the M84D) and expecting to export it

this means that theres no learning curve for production, so the initial costs are huge.

no wonder kuwait didnt buy any, they cost about $US4.5mn each, as much as an Abrams, while being substantially less capable

serbias upgrade package costing about $US800,000 is slighty more realistic

croatia would of have done better doing
1. paying 4.5mn to buy abrams
2. upgrading there tanks to anout t90 standard for about $800,000
3. the best option, buy t90s at about $2.5mn each

if it wasnt for pride they would of have never of have done this, its a perfect example of wasteful military expenditure, as i doubt this m95 will EVER be exported let alone have more than about 200 built just so that they can say its homemade.

if kuwait wanted to waste money on something like this they would of made there own tanks specific to desert conditions, and exported them to the other gulf states.

their VHS rifle is more realistic as they can produce a large enough number to keep costs down
 
November 5th, 2009   #63
Zastava-Arms
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwood
Not really. The one advantage a T72 had in Iraq was a 123 mm gun compared to 120 mm on the M-1A1 and 105mm on some western tanks. The T72 was just too inferior in too many ways to have a chance in an open terrain battle. Yugoslavia is much different terrain and a "home field advantage" could help a lot. However, the ability to aim faster and shoot on the move is a big plus for the more advanced top tier tanks and if these are in effect upgraded T72 clones, the crew area will be cramped and ventilation not too good.
The only T-72's in service in Yugoslavia are heavily modified TRAINING MBT's that are not intended for front-line combat.

The M-84 is a Yugoslav-made tank based on the T-72, though it is significantly better than the latter.

The M-84AS [Also known as M-2001] is a sister tank of the new Russian T-90, and it also has the SHTORA active protection system. The Yugoslav/Serbian/Croatian tanks are uhh far more superior than whatever hunk of junk Iraq had.
 
November 5th, 2009   #64
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zastava-Arms
The only T-72's in service in Yugoslavia are heavily modified TRAINING MBT's that are not intended for front-line combat.

The M-84 is a Yugoslav-made tank based on the T-72, though it is significantly better than the latter.
To be fair its not significantly better, it has superior optics, armor and a more powerful engine but its not really that much more of an improvement.

The M-84AS [Also known as M-2001] is a sister tank of the new Russian T-90, and it also has the SHTORA active protection system. The Yugoslav/Serbian/Croatian tanks are uhh far more superior than whatever hunk of junk Iraq had. [/QUOTE]
While i agree with Iraq remark the M-84AS and T-90 in all of its varians have some extensive differences, for example T-90 is much better armored.
 
November 6th, 2009   #65
Zastava-Arms
 
I know, its not the same, but its very similar.

A T-90 will be able to take on a M-84AS easy.
 
February 20th, 2011   #66
marcellogo
 

Some little precisation... info


Interest to thread seems to be dead, let/s try to revive it:
Some days ago croatian prime minister, Mrs Jadranka Kosor went to Đuro Đaković 90th adniversary celebration and attended to live presentation of both M84a4 and new D version together with Patria AMV.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5452/capture12b.jpg

Image of m-84 are oWever quite elusive, but exist...

http://www.sbonline.net/images/slavo...0-004676_3.jpg

Seems me strange that you compare M-84AS with M-95 and not with M-84D that would be more correct.

M-95 it is a successor of M91 Vihor, so a 2.5/3 gen tank, designed to correct the flaws of T72 that m-84 inherited.

And no M-95 is not built from scratch, it is the continuation of a yugoslavian project when Jugoslavia was a country of good tecnological standard (with also some excellency like submarines, artillery sistems and mines) and a lot of military expenditure.

Croatia have mantained same standard, Serbia maybe only a little less because of embargo but both have proved able to start entirely new projects, let alone continue with legacy ones
 
June 22nd, 2011   #67
MADMAN
 
M84AS is best compared to T-90 as it is based on it.
T-90 is better armored and slower,while M-84AS is lighter and more agile and faster.It depends on which style do you prefer.Weapons are the same.
Therefore i think that it would be a good match for every western tank.
I`m not saying it can beat every western tank,but it is not target practise aswell.
 
November 12th, 2011   #68
CH3TN!K
 
 
You all seem to forget that the M-84AS has a125 mm 2A46M smoothbore gun and a 9M119 Svir as main armament. Now last time I checked, this tank is more of a twin, to the Russian T-90. Only difference is that the T-90 has thicker layered armor under it's NERA, but the M-84AS is 15km/h faster! Meaning the thing damn near flies with it's top speed of 75km/h on road. Last time I checked, that's on par, if not faster than a damn fuel guzzling gas turbine M1A2!!! So in essence, a 2.5Gen like the M-84AS can compete 1-1 with 3rdGen's as long as there is enough numbers for it to be a 1-1 fight, and not to mention logistics. I know of Desert Storm/ Iraq 1 vets saying that the only thing holding them back was fuel, and with a much greater Anti-Air capabilities that Serbia has, since it's a lot smaller, and has mastered stealth killing Low Frequency Radar, it is hard to assume that the M-84AS wouldn't have a good shot putting up an awesome fight against any current 3rdGen. The problem is not the design, the problem is logistics, and manufacturing. Look at the M-95, Croatia has been trying for 10yrs to field this thing and all it resulted was 2 tanks, one export dummy version(which Kuwait is buying) and another tech. demonstrator.

What I am more interested is the future of the M-84AS, Serbia is in talks with Russia about buying a new fighter. The latest talks have yielded that if Serbia agrees to purchase, I believe it was 30 Sukhoi Su-30MKII that Russia would give Serbia a $3 Billion loan for military spending. How this has to deal with tanks is, if it goes through, this will give Serbia the opportunity to have the cash to upgrade to Relikt ERA or even get some idea of how to indigenous produce the top secret, and highly sough after Kaktus ERA which was specifically designed to defeat the US M829A3 round, which in turn was developed to defeat Kontakt-5. This would boost the M-84AS into almost Gen.3 status lol, it's like 2.9Gen. The only thing holding this back from happening is the very pro-western government who is running, I mean ruining Serbia. They are having a hard time choosing between the Russian deal and Europe's deal of some Typhoons plus upgrades and export guarantees of the Super Galeb. Me as an ethnic Serb, always goes with Russia lol. It's really the only plan that makes sense considering Russia's plans to build a gas pipeline through the Balkans and Serbia. Well enough current events on Serbia for you guys, back to tanks.

The more interesting option, and the one Serbia can afford today, would be Russia's new Nakidka RAM (Radar-Absorbing Material), this is not your regular RAM found on the F-117, if you guys never looked this stuff up, I WOULD! This stuff almost eliminates all IR, Radar, TV/Optical, and Thermal detection. And Serbia has a long history of developing paints such as these, so I would not be surprised if they created an indigenous version themselves. The only weakness of Nakidka, is that if you plan on using a "Roll-Cage" add on(found on most western armor), for better armor, it eliminates the effectiveness. But I don't see this as a problem since Kontakt-5, and a possible upgrade can stop RPG's. Another cool option for defense is Russia's new EMT-7 electromagnetic pulse creator, that blasts an EMP whenever any guided munition is detected incoming and literally bricks it in mid air. Though it should be mentioned that it has never gone operational, only been fielded in tests, but Russia says if it were to get into a major war, like with a modern country, it could upgrade all T-72's, and 90's in their inventory.
 
November 12th, 2011   #69
CH3TN!K
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcellogo
Interest to thread seems to be dead, let/s try to revive it:
Some days ago croatian prime minister, Mrs Jadranka Kosor went to Đuro Đaković 90th adniversary celebration and attended to live presentation of both M84a4 and new D version together with Patria AMV.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5452/capture12b.jpg

Image of m-84 are oWever quite elusive, but exist...

http://www.sbonline.net/images/slavo...0-004676_3.jpg

Seems me strange that you compare M-84AS with M-95 and not with M-84D that would be more correct.

Incorrect, the M-84D is a D=Dummy version of the M-95 Degman, which in turn is an upgrade along the M-84 tree. That "tree" I am talking about, splits when the M-84AS and M-95 were created. So them two are in direct competition. The Vihor project was a failed project since it solely depended on a unified Yugo, since parts would be coming from both Serbia and Croatia. I believe it was chassis and engine from Croatia, and optics and armament from Serbia. The Vihor was a standalone project, not a successor to the M-84 or T-72 in that regards. So since it was never created, the M-95 could never be a successor.

M-95 it is a successor of M91 Vihor, so a 2.5/3 gen tank, designed to correct the flaws of T72 that m-84 inherited.

Incorrect, read correction above.

And no M-95 is not built from scratch, it is the continuation of a yugoslavian project when Jugoslavia was a country of good tecnological standard (with also some excellency like submarines, artillery sistems and mines) and a lot of military expenditure.

Croatia have mantained same standard, Serbia maybe only a little less because of embargo but both have proved able to start entirely new projects, let alone continue with legacy ones
Embargo has not stopped Serbia, they have always had free trade with Russia, they have always gone under the Business Transaction Route where Russia trades capitol fro land or business, that capitol is used for military upgrades, if not through direct procurement, it is for sure being done intellectually. A prime example is the Mig-29's that survived Kosovo War. Russia immediately took what was left of them and upgraded them to SM2 standard.
 
November 17th, 2011   #70
wayword son
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwood
Not really. The one advantage a T72 had in Iraq was a 123 mm gun compared to 120 mm on the M-1A1 and 105mm on some western tanks. The T72 was just too inferior in too many ways to have a chance in an open terrain battle. Yugoslavia is much different terrain and a "home field advantage" could help a lot. However, the ability to aim faster and shoot on the move is a big plus for the more advanced top tier tanks and if these are in effect upgraded T72 clones, the crew area will be cramped and ventilation not too good.
i may note that the Sherman, and the panther both had 75mm guns, the 75 on the panther beat the Sherman’s gun at all ranges. a colt .45 has a far larger diameter than a 223, but the 223 has longer range, greater accuracy, and greater penetration of soft body armor.

in my opinion, as long as the second gen t-XX variants, and upgrades of those have the same basic layout (the carrousel of death, under the turret) the tanks will be at a disadvantage. no matter what is bolted to the outside, a 2nd gen tank with the best armor upgrades and anti missile defenses, still suffers from the 2gen tank layout. as both second and third gen tanks can, and sometimes do have comparable targeting systems, armor and anti missile defenses bolted on. When starting with a 3d gen tank, your bolting all that added capability, and protection onto a tank chassis that may have started with comparable base armor. But did have a far more survivable basic layout.

not to say a 125mm gun doesn’t have any advantages over a 120mm. a 125mm bore gives your heat rounds a little more potential penetration, if you have a gun launched atgm, it will have potentially grater capability with a larger bore, but, the primary tank killing round is the sabot, and, as the sabot round is usually 25mm in diameter, its penetration is a factor kinetic enery, that is, its aspect ratio, (lenth vs diameter) the wieght of the projectile, x its velocity at impact). velocity is not directly related to bore diameter, and has more to with the guns caliber, and the rounds propellant capacity. the only real comparisen is the initial velocity of the round between the two guns...as for the 105, there is a reason it is no longer the chioce for an mbt, it has a significantly smaller bore than the 120,125, so the effectiveness of any h.e. round suffers greatly, and increasing case capacity, to boost velocity to the 120, 125 level, can cause unacceptable barrel wear (as your forcing more propellant gas, trough a smaller bore, at a higher velocity)

I know that no iraqi T-72 ever penetrated an abrams in ether of the two wars, even when in one incedent during GW-1, a t-72 fired on an abrams (that was stuck in a mud hole) at piont blank range, however, the abrams that later fired into that tanks frontal armor (a attempt at an enemy denial destruction) the abrams did not penetrate either (what happend to the t-72's is somewhat pradictable)

its outside of my knowledge, if there is a russian 125mm main gun, with comparable, or greater velocity than the 120, and a comparable or greater on target KE. with a sabot, i will concede that it is equil to, or more powerfull than a 120mm (cause ya cant argue with the math)

Last edited by wayword son; November 17th, 2011 at 07:36..
 



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degman, m-84, m-84as, m-95, tank

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