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Serious contenders against what? Can you give examples of these awesome modernisations? As for technology Israel is not better than any other developed country worse than a few (its fighter being sub par for example).

What fighter? I dont think Israel is better at military tech than most developed countries, just wondering what fighter are you refering to?
As far as upgrades, the Magach 6B and 7 were and still are able to match what they were built to match- T-72 monkey mdels, M1 early models, etc. The fire control system on the Magach 6B is considered by many to be better than the early Merkava Mk 3 FCS, and by some to match the Baz FCS.

What Russian aircraft????

Su-25, Mig-21, and someothers as far as I recall were and are being upgraded by Israel for clients around the world.

Unless extremely lucky they'd get massacred not "have a hard time".

And this is based on what? What war saw heavily upgraded 2nd generation tanks face 3rd generation tanks? I honestly dont see the Sabra being slaughtered by M1A1 or Merkava Mk 3 or Leopard 2A4. This is assuming the have the same level of support. The main problem the Sabra would have is protection. Considering that no one should really build much on the armor of the tank to save his ass, I dont see it as a huge problem. The 120mm is the same, fire control is the same. Engine is the same.

Originally Posted by tommy_gunn

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Its not SAS, its fromt the Crvene Beretke.

Many versions of the Su-30 have Israeli avionics, especially the ones exported to India.

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-2...7_variants.htm

I don't think the Sabra would be slaughtered by 3rd generation tanks for the same reasons Sherman gave.

Money is a factor, but it's a factor in just about everything therefore I didn't really give it much mention. But even then the fact that the Chinese have a lot of money but no world class MBT is probably a good clue that pumping out a world class MBT is a lot tougher than it looks. Therefore, whether or not the Croatians or the Serbians can do it is highly doubtful. If they did, it'd be one heck of a feat.

Zastava, I got your question now. Sorry I jumped to conclusions.

Originally Posted by SHERMAN

What fighter? I dont think Israel is better at military tech than most developed countries, just wondering what fighter are you refering to?.

Lavi, and i should have clarified, it was not subpar but not cost effective.

Originally Posted by SHERMAN

As far as upgrades, the Magach 6B and 7 were and still are able to match what they were built to match- T-72 monkey mdels, M1 early models, etc. The fire control system on the Magach 6B is considered by many to be better than the early Merkava Mk 3 FCS, and by some to match the Baz FCS.

I absolutely agree with all of the above but we're not discussing ME T-72s which are a few paces short of junk on wheels but Eastern European ones which are a different animal alltogether.

Originally Posted by SHERMAN

Su-25, Mig-21, and someothers as far as I recall were and are being upgraded by Israel for clients around the world.

Yes but thats because of the low cost/high technology, Russia would theoretically be able to do the same upgrades but the price would be much higher given the shape their industry is in.

Originally Posted by SHERMAN

And this is based on what? What war saw heavily upgraded 2nd generation tanks face 3rd generation tanks? I honestly dont see the Sabra being slaughtered by M1A1 or Merkava Mk 3 or Leopard 2A4.

Given its armor and manouverability? And i know its armor is upgraded but there's limits on the powerpack, your own security and the amount of money Turkey did cough up, i'm just not seeing it surviving a frontal hit, even if its not destroyed its a mission kill whereas the other side has a good shot at continouing operations, thats all ignoring what a slow unwieldy cow Sabra is.

Originally Posted by SHERMAN

This is assuming the have the same level of support. The main problem the Sabra would have is protection. Considering that no one should really build much on the armor of the tank to save his ass, I dont see it as a huge problem. The 120mm is the same, fire control is the same. Engine is the same.

And speed, Sabra is 15kmph slower than most T-72s (barring PT-91 thats one of the slowest ones), its a whooping 17kmph slower than Leo2A4.

That is a big difference, it means that often Sabra would get outmanouvered and you know what happens if its hit anywhere thats not the front.

And i agree that we can only theorize but speed and armor are pretty big cons.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Money is a factor, but it's a factor in just about everything therefore I didn't really give it much mention. But even then the fact that the Chinese have a lot of money but no world class MBT is probably a good clue that pumping out a world class MBT is a lot tougher than it looks.

Pumping out a good MBT requires money and technology, countries like Sweden, Switzerland or Poland had the technology but didnt have the money, countries like India or China have the money but no one is willing to transfer the technologies so they're forced to develop their own which are less than satisfactory.

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

Pumping out a good MBT requires money and technology, countries like Sweden, Switzerland or Poland had the technology but didnt have the money, countries like India or China have the money but no one is willing to transfer the technologies so they're forced to develop their own which are less than satisfactory.

Yes and Croatia and Serbia have neither so what's your point?

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Yes and Croatia and Serbia have neither so what's your point?

Neither is developing anything special, these tanks are just in depth upgrade packages like Sabra, not a new tank.

That's sort of what I've been getting at isn't it?
I said, that the odds are they are fine tanks (especially with Kuwait's interest) but don't ever think that they're top of the line MBTs.

Im pretty sure none of us implied that a M-84AS would smash a Leopard 2 in a tank battle, I was just wondering about how well it would compete.

Like the factors like protection, mobility, speed, armour, electronics etc.

And Serbia has enough money to keep Yugoslav-Era equipment up to date and still pose a threat [They are going to fix up the old G-4 Super Galebs] but im not sure about Croatia.